Ausmini
It is currently Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:56 pm

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:46 am 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 am
Posts: 1507
Location: Brandy Hill, NSW
I have rebuilt my 1969 Mk2 engine and it seems to be running Ok ish. When it is running and I remove the oil filler cap the rev's drop and the engine stops.

Is this normal or is something that needs attention?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:51 am 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 4352
Location: Wollongong, NSW
Have you got a PCV hooked up? If so:

Quote:
There are a few unnatural operating conditions for this valve. First, if you remove the oil filler cap when running you lose the crankcase vacuum. With increased absolute pressure in the crankcase the PCV valve will open wider in attempt to process this perceived excess "blow-by". When the valve cannot increase flow enough to restore crankcase vacuum, the best it can do is to go wide open. When allowing maximum flow of air through the PCV valve the engine idle will speed up a little, and the fuel mixture will go lean, and it should have a slightly rough fast idle.


https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/cv103.htm

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:27 pm 
Offline
998cc
998cc
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 7:17 am
Posts: 549
If the crankcase ventilation in piped to the manifold to use manifold vacuum to draw air through the crankcase then the oil filler cap is the main restrictor with a small hole. So if you remove the filler cap you will introduce a large vacuum leak. It is normal for those vehicles with the manifold as the main vacuum source. Later cars had the source on the carb air intake side so that leaks 8n the ccv hoses does not create a vacuum leak.

_________________
Cheers Dave.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:01 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:11 pm
Posts: 418
Location: Brisbane Northside
If it has the CCV system it is normal. If it doesn't cut out or almost cut out then it is running too rich.

You probably don't have the CCV system though.

_________________
1986 Mayfair (998 auto), 1974 S, 1974 Van, 1972 PMG Van

Too many minis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:02 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:07 pm
Posts: 327
It certainly is easy to get confused about crankcase ventilation, not only from the present discussion, but also an interesting (and now since removed) exchange of views on FB recently.

Basically there are four types of crankcase ventilation systems for Mini. A description of each follows, but we must first remember what the ventilation system is for. As we all know, the seal of the piston rings is not perfect, and during compression and combustion strokes, there is blowby from the combustion chamber into the crankcase. It is thought that some 80% of this blowby is unburnt fuel, the remainder being products of combustion – a large part of which is water. If these gases and water vapour were to remain in the crankcase, they would form sludge with the oil which is of course undesirable, not to mention the presence of corrosive compounds. The engine ventilation system is supposed to circulate a continuous stream of fresh air through the crankcase so as to remove the blowby gases before they have time to do any damage.

Why I say all this is because I often see people just dumping their ventilation pipes to a catch can. Perhaps in a race car it might be OK so as to maximise power output, but for a road going car which probably doesn’t even get to operating temperature half the time, this practice will eventually lead to many problems.

The first method of crankcase ventilation (used by many cars of the early 60s) was to have a vented oil filler cap and what is called a “draft tube” which was connected to the crankcase and pointed downwards into the under-car air stream so that passage of the car would create a suction effect thus drawing fresh air though the cap, through the crankcase, and out the tube. Effective, but hardly environmentally friendly.

The next method (such as that found on an 850 or early deluxe and Cooper S) is similar in operation but the air goes the other way. The oil cap is sealed. A pipe joins the rocker cover to the air cleaner intake, and there is a tube in the engine side plate. This tube has all the appearance of being crimped off, but in fact, there is a very small gap in the end of the crimp. Air is drawn through the crimped end, through the crankcase, and out the rocker cover into the air cleaner. This also works quite well, but is unregulated – so that much the same amount of ventilation occurs at idle as compared to full throttle. In this system, removing the oil filter cap shouldn’t make any different to the idle rpm. The oil cap is plastic, (steel on very early cars) short neck, and non-vented.

The third type of system is one which involves the PCV diaphragm valve which can be found on a MKII Cooper S (not sure if any MKI’s had it). In this system, there is a vented filler cap and a breather separator in the timing gear cover. Air travels into the rocker cover via the vented cap, through the crankcase, through the oil separator in the breather, up to the control valve, and then into the inlet manifold. The control valve is needed because (unlike the air cleaner depression), the vacuum level can be quite high. What is unusual about this valve compared to just an ordinary PCV valve is that it is controlled by crankcase pressure, or more correctly, crankcase vacuum. At idle, there is a certain amount of crankcase vacuum present due to the action of the PVC system as a whole, and the valve is designed to limit the amount of ventilation applied. A sort of a feedback loop. At higher engine loads, the blowby increases and so the vacuum falls, and the valve opens more to increase the ventilation effect to accommodate the extra blowby that needs to be handled. In this system, removing the oil filter cap should result in a slight increase in idle rpm. It should not stall. The filer cap has a long neck, and is vented – either through two holes in the top surface, or slots under the rim. Inside, there is a wire mesh filter. The valve can be dismantled to some extent and it is possible to get a new diaphragm.

The fourth type worthy of mentioning is found on MKII Cooper S, Clubman/Leyland Mini engines and involves a connection to a port on the carburetter. The ventilated gases from the crankcase are fed into a white plastic pipe connector at the carburetter body. This connector is positioned up stream of the throttle disc and downstream of the carburetter piston. Since the velocity of the air flow through the carburettor past this port depends on the throttle opening, then the resulting depression (similar in action to the original draft tube) serves to control the amount of crankcase ventilation depending on engine load. Air is drawn in at the rocker cover.

My apologies for the long lecture, but it is an interesting topic and these parts (rocker cover, cap, breather, etc) are often mixed up which is why things often go wrong.


Last edited by eightfifty on Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:18 am, edited 4 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:40 pm 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 am
Posts: 1507
Location: Brandy Hill, NSW
Thanks for all your input.

Just to get things clear, my Mini has the 3rd option PVC system of a MKII Cooper S.


Last edited by cooperess on Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:01 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:07 pm
Posts: 327
In this system, the diaphagm senses the depression in the crankcase so you probably need to make sure that you have a xxx non vented xxx (cross that out) - vented oil filler cap, and no other vents (e.g. rocker cover, flywheel housing, engine side cover) other than the timing cover, and of course, the diaphragm being in good order. Some of these control valves have a cross like casting that acts like a guide for the metering piston so probably make sure the piston in the valve is free to move. I think there's a spring above and below the piston.


Last edited by eightfifty on Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:50 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:11 pm
Posts: 418
Location: Brisbane Northside
eightfifty wrote:
In this system, the diaphagm senses the depression in the crankcase so you probably need to make sure that you have a non-vented oil filler cap, and no other vents (e.g. rocker cover, flywheel housing, engine side cover) other than the timing cover, and of course, the diaphragm being in good order. Some of these control valves have a cross like casting that acts like a guide for the metering piston so probably make sure the piston in the valve is free to move. I think there's a spring above and below the piston.


Do you mean a vented cap?

_________________
1986 Mayfair (998 auto), 1974 S, 1974 Van, 1972 PMG Van

Too many minis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:44 am 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:07 pm
Posts: 327
Sorry, my mistake. Have edited the reply. With this system, I'd say that putting in a flywheel housing vent would cause problems, and perhaps even a leak at the fuel pump blanking plate also.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:48 am 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 am
Posts: 1507
Location: Brandy Hill, NSW
Maybe these picture will help in someone working out why the Mini stalls when oil filler cap is removed.
Maybe that is normal, I have no idea.
Attachment:
Mini Clutch Breather DSCF2140.JPG
Attachment:
Mini PCV Oil Filler Cap DSCF2141.JPG
Attachment:
Mini Tappet Cover Breather DSCF2142.JPG
Attachment:
Mini Spark Plug DSCF2147.JPG


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:15 am 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:07 pm
Posts: 327
Nice photos, but I can't see anthing wrong here. I presume that it is a vented filler cap (long neck). The oil separator shows in drawings as being on the timing case cover or the engine side cover as yours, but I don't know if this makes any difference. I'd check to see that the oil separator on the side cover gives a free passage of air through. There's wire gauze in there and some baffles but air should flow though it fairly easily I would think. I'd also check the dip stick and make sure it seals.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:39 am 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 4352
Location: Wollongong, NSW
Side note: the BP7ES may be a little cold for a standard 1275. If the plugs are getting fouled or not burning off deposits you will be better off with BP6ES, along with 0.025” gaps

And following from Tony’s post - which oil cap did you buy and is it a vented cap?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 1:53 pm 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 am
Posts: 1507
Location: Brandy Hill, NSW
timmy201 I have a new vented oil cap.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:45 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:07 pm
Posts: 327
Just looking in more detail at this breather valve. There are several versions of this, 13H1753, 13H3609 and 13H5191. You most likely have 13H3609 because you are able to take the thing apart whereas the earlier one was more of a sealed unit. The only difference between 13H3609 and 13H5191 is the shape of the taper on the plunger inside. Also, there is at the bottom of the assembly a spring loaded one way valve which acts as backfire safety valve so it might be worth checking that it isn't stuck open or closed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: MK2 ENGINE STALL
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:56 pm 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:38 am
Posts: 1507
Location: Brandy Hill, NSW
eightfifty All good, also has new rubber.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], ken@miniauto and 106 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

© 2016 Ausmini. All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.