heh.... Sorry lil ute.

yea that looks awesome, how will it go below 2500rpm?

stab in the dark the better CAM is on the right

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PrOuDlY aSkInG qUeStIoNs FoR uR aMuEsMeNt

Uh huh. That profile will get the valve opening faster, and hold it open for longer promoting better filling of the cylinder and therefore a bigger bang

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Simon

The adventures of an owner builder in the Tallarook Ranges

Yes,,, It has a fairly high valve "accelleration" rate (steep ramp) this was my point when i said the sw5 was "heading in that direction",,,

GR you are a man of the world so i`m sure you understand my point---> (I didn`t say it was the same) ...& in fact the valve timings & lift & duration you have stated is "VERY" close to the Waggott 509 cam---> & to quote exactly what i said --->

"""""""""it`s basically similar valve timings as a std-ish 1100"S" (1275) but with a little more duration & a little more lift,,, """""""""""""""""" sounds lovely to me as long as the springs aren`t too strong to shred lobes & followers with road use.

Hence it`s steeper & wider lobe profile (duration) that the sw5 you have posted the pic comparison of ,,, that`s not hard to understand really is it?

If we now put a pic of a "Full House Race" 60-80 , 520thou lift (@ the valve) type grind beside your new cam to show the difference to it,,, yeah???... Just to show the difference to those here who don`t know what i`m talking about??? Then add the overlap differences , LCA`s to get the "Complete Picture" ,,, to see what i mean about the "TOTALLY" different cam profiles , with "TOTALLY" different """Intended Purposes""" so they all can get an idea of what i`m trying to get across here...

Your "NEW" cam profile GR , is not very different to some old grinds that "Elgin" , Tighe & "Waggot" had produced years ago (slightly) but by no means is it a "Massive Full Race cam" ...& obviously that is GR`s main point,,, I must make this clear to all who are following this thread.... It`s "Intended" as a nice & drivable cam, yet providing big heaps of "Broad spread" torque ,,, Looks like a good thing on the specs of it to me,,, now "IF" you couple it with a decent sized engine ,,, remember that (GR quoted a 1380cc) , & couple that with a """DECENT"""" cyl head,,, well then we can say ""that`s"" it`s """intended purpose"""" & i`m sure the results will be lovely ((("""I`m Not Denying That"""))),,, of course it will be good,,, dam big donk,,, decent lift,,, decent duration yet with rather soft cam timings makes for the good package , road , rally or race,,, but it`s no match for a "FULL HOUSE" race profile with the same capacity added to a massive head on a High reving engine on a big open top speed track

That sort of cam That GR is developing is going to be really good (especially good) on small/medium tight race tracks , but im afraid that on large tracks, with very open & fast long straights (Willowbank/Bathurst etc) are a totally different kettle of fish where """"Full House Race Sports sedan""" type 520thou lift & 60-80 cam timings , very long duration cams , big over-laps & massive port/valve heads come into play... the little cam you`re describing GR won`t stand a chance against """"Full House , high reving top end performance"""" engines , especially on big tracks like that,,,, again it`s purely a matter of """Horses for courses""""",,, GR,,, your new "Horse" is good for hot road/rally & small/medium race tracks with no need to rev your engine hard,,, allowing for less "Chance" of high rev blow ups , wear & tear ,,, & thats really good,,, Dam good in fact & very appealing to the average Joe,,, i applaude you & i mean that,,, it`s exactly the type of power delivery i like in my big road engines.

again,,, it`s obviously a dam good cam (& i quote GR)---> """In It`s Class""" & for it`s intended purpose.

I have to say tho,,, that it`s "Obviously no "Full house race" cam.... it`s a dam good combination (compromise) road/rally/race cam---> That`s it`s place is it`s """""""Intended purpose"""" & i`ve no doubt that GR will develope it ,,, & the 7 port head,,, to work very well indeed & out perform a pile of "average" race engines that are currently on the tracks at the moment,,, But i have my reservations of it`s ability to perform against "Very well developed Full Race Engines"

I`d like to make that point Very Very clear ...that it`s no "Full house race" weapon & it cannot be compared to same,,, GR has commented that it`s """Better than"" a lot of race engines he`s tested,,, that`s all good to say ,,, but , i`ll say it again for all who care to listen & understand, & please don`t take this the wrong way, i`m not bagging GR,,, but it`s certainly not a patch on very well developed , tried & proven """FULL HOUSE RACE"""" engines

If you`re after a """Very Decent road/Rally/Race""" cam/ head package then i have no doubt (if you`re happy to spend the money for that "Class" of engine package) , then i`m sure it will be money well spent,,, & ,,, My point (& i`m sure GR`s main point) is that it`s ---> ""nice & easy to drive as well"" ,,,anyone with any knowedge of cam shafts will understand that.

sorry to everyone to carry this on , but it`s all too easy to miss-interprate what people say on forums & with someone like GR telling the story,,, well , most people will believe he`s the be-all & end all of mini tuning "Guru-ism",.,,, & i`m sure he will sell lots of these cams & lots of cyl heads for Elder,,, that`s what it`s all about,,, I`ve no problem with that,,, i just like to make it clear that this cam is usable for road, rally & race,,, In effect, it`s a compromise,,, a dam good one,,, but a compromise all the same

It`s defiantely not a patch on a true full house race cam profile

GR,,, please respect what i`m saying here as i know you would creat a far faster engine with a much nastier profile,,,, let the people know that ,,, so they can at least get the jist of what i`m saying here

Edit---> My only reservastion is the need for fairly high valve spring tension & the resultant wear caused by such strong springs,,, if you can keep the follower & lobe wear at bay then cool... this will be a good cam

& yes i will be at Morgan Pk for the Histericals & yes i`ll bring one of my heads

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

epi-post!

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Here am I sitting in my tin can far above the Moon
Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do...



“A turbo: exhaust gasses go into the turbocharger and spin it, witchcraft happens and you go faster.” - Jeremy Clarkson

Truly great work GR!

I will be interested to check out the working engine, when its ready, for sure.

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In the garage:
1970 Morris Cooper S MK2 | 2010 MINI Cooper JCW Challenge Edition

Now with new owners:
1964 Morris 850 Van | 1965 Morris Cooper S MK1 | 1976 Leyland Mini | 1999 Rover Mini Cooper Classic | 2006 MINI Cooper JCW

Matt,

With all due respect - this is going down the wrong track.
Grahams new cam has nothing to do with race motors (Full race or rally or anything) at all.

His new profile is an awesome road cam - thats all.
The fact that is out-performs many race motors (full race yes!) is a bonus.

If GR wanted to provide data and figures for a full house race motor with a full house race cam of his - he could do that no problem but this thread ultimately has nothing to do with race cams or full race motors.

This cam of Grahams can be used in an A-series without the Elder head... take a 1275 tickle the head and throw in one of these cams with appropriate bits and pieces and you have yourself a seriously quick road motor with torque and HP curves that are astonishing... putting this cam into the motor with an Elder head on top would be wicked and far better but the point is simple... and that is;

This is a new design profile ROAD cam that outperforms many race motors... not a race cam.

Hope that clears up any confusion and I am sure GR will reply soon.

Cheers,
Peter

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Click here for the Turbo Conversion Thread!

Yep,,, Pete you have just said the same thing,,, it`s good you understand,,, One of the reasons i`m talking about all this is because of the many people who have contacted me & other people on this forum (obviously confused) by the comaprison that GR gave his new cam design to full race engines

hope you can understand that ,,,& also realise there are "Plenty" of other people who don`t quite understand all this , & many many more who don`t respond/reply here, they just read this forum & go away believing that GR is developinjg a new race grind which will eat the full race competition.

like i said tho,,, my only reservations are the fact that (with this cam) there is a need to run fairly strong springs to help keep the lifters on the cam with such a steep ramp,,,& in doing that (like race engines) it "Can" have a fairly quick wear rate driving on the road,,, Again (& one of my points here) """"one""" of the many reasons why race motors don`t work on the road (for very long) is that a race engine`s valves are fairly highly sprung ,,, hence the "Horses for Courses" quote,,, race motors don`t work on the road

I personally don`t like running very strong valve springs on road engines,,, i believe that more than half the minis that are running double valve springs around town right now are "WAY" over sprung & are just sucking power, not making the engine faster at all & in fact are only slowing the engine down & making for premature wear compared to a weaker (more suitable) road spring... why spring your engine to 7000+rpms when you`re barely using 5500 ??????????

There really is a method & reason why i type the stuff i do,,, if any of you have just understood my points with all this , then good,,, because that was my objective & obviously it has all been worth it

However, I`m am very interested (as i`ve said all along) & i`m all for GR doing all the hard yards developing this sort of thing,,, I`ve Blessed him & his efforts this whole thread in fact, how can i possibly bag the man??? I will say it again---> hes doing great things.

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Would this head be any better suited to forced induction than a 5 port head?

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1970 Mini Deluxe - 1275, Weber, Clive 346 cam, MS 4-pot slotted discs, Megajolt ignition Now with new improved Mambas... almost on the road
1966 Van with Traveller rear seat conversion
2008 Prado GXL
All in various states of repair...

What GR is achieving with the re-profile of the cam is addressing a problem that all perforomnce engines have.

In a perfect world the valve would open instantly and remain open for the induction of the piston to draw a full cylinder of air with a static pressure of 14.7psi then shut instantly at BDC . To achieve this the profile would be square, of course this is impossible the cam would not turn at any high rpm.

The other problem is as Matt said ,basically the more movment of the valve the stronger the spring has to be to allow for this movement[Re hookes law].
One of the other problems is if the cam profile is very "sharp" ie the one on the left in GR's pic, then the sudden movement of the valve in opening and closing helps to create valve bounce[ spring occelation].
It is almost impossible to design a cam profile that is going to cover all various engine requirements. Matt is trying to explain this.
If you want a eng that does not require big revs to perform then a flatter profile is good IE piston speed is slower and the air can be drawn in over a longer period of time. Think of a 4 stroke engine running at 6000rpm and the piston/valve movement is happening at 100 times per second.

This whole problem has been researched by engine manufacturer's for years. The pic below is a good example of how a slight difference in a cam profile changes the performance of a eng.
The cam on the left is a honda R2 and the other is a R1. The R2 ran double springs to compensate for the sharp profile, but the R1 only has a single spring. The approach and back angles of both cams are different,but both have duration of 280 deg and lift of .420" but the two cams are totally different in terms of the performance rev range.

The way I look at the whole cam shaft set-up is to have a fully adjustable cam IE profile, duration, timing and overlap. I do not think that anyone has made a cam like that yet. The advantage of two seperate cams is atleast the overlap and valve timing can be adjusted to suit the requirements of the eng.

Graham is doing a good job trying to take a piece of stone age machinery and turn it into something that works better.
I may be wrong but I look at the technology today and there must be a reason why most engine makers are running two or more or variable cams

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Research is the difference between speculation and investment. Anyone who copys some one else will always be second
www.minisprintgt.com

Perhaps this topic could be split, bot the head and the cam discussions are very interesting....

engines like the 998cc R1 are able to push 12000+ RPM without a stutter in valve performance, and the range remains within the easy operating range of the engine. How are they able to breeze past the problems of valve bounce while mini engines consistently have trouble doing so beyond 7000 rpm?

Is it the large mass of the valves and springs alone?

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SooperDooperMiniCooperExpertEngineering

All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.

Can some please post a pic of what a good road head for a large bore Mini looks like

We had a couple of heads done 20 years or so ago as per the Yellow vizard book
oviously two decades later things have changed some what

Very interesting subject

Thanks

Bernard

Hi Matt

Heres some photos of 3 full race cams, from left right left is Elgins big full race cam .560tho lift at the valve 310 duration, cam in the middle is the one i use in greig malures group N motor .500tho at the valve 308 duration (short stroke engine) cam on the right is the one i use in my group NC motor .450tho lift at the valve 296 duration std stroke greig and my cam are both my own design.



Now compared to my little road cam with 260 duration and .320 tho lift they really dont compare in looks or performance, here is my dyno sheet for my NC engine, oh i nearly for got the cam in my motor has to use .875 dia cam followers not the std .812 dia



Here are some photos of my car with Greig wearing my cam shaft at wakefield:

Only slightly off-topic, but I've always wondered how one goes about regrinding a cam to put a different profile on it. Wouldn't you have to build the cam up first, and then grind it to shape? How is this done?

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Simon

The adventures of an owner builder in the Tallarook Ranges