Hey Greg

Putting it that way, yes a fake is a fake.

The problem is that nobody (that I know of anyway) takes a bottle of acid with them when buying a car to pour on the numbers to make sure that it is genuine, have you ever done this I would imagine this would only be done by the police if investigating an issue.

When i refer to doing it properly it would be taking all the distinguishing parts, including stamped numbers and grafting them onto the donor shell.
A thought I just had is if you take a Cooper S plus a shell and make a Cooper S is completely different to taking a Deluxe and making a Cooper S with the addition of a few parts. So put another way the Cooper S has been rebuilt not reborn/rebirthed/created.
To do this properly one would have to be the owner of a Cooper S first, not collect some bits to make one. Start with a Cooper S, work on it, end up with a Cooper S.

Steve

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1964 998cc Cooper
1971 Mini K x 2
1972 Clubman GT

I actually find it quite disturbing how many people on this site alone seem to think that making a really good fake and being willing to pass it off as genuine is somehow acceptable.

If the body did not leave the factory as a Cooper S, then it is not and never will be a Cooper S body. Even if you attach the fan shroud, firewall numbers, plate etc... it will still be another body with a fraudulently applied Cooper S identity.

Now, if you want to build a really good fake and are happy to openly disclose it as a replica, copy, fake, rebodied S etc, I am fine with that. However, if you want to do this and then pass it off as a genuine Cooper S then you are a scumbag who is only interested in lining your pockets at the expense of someone else.

My comments here are in no way supporting anyone trying to defraud people, particularly out of their hard earned cash, it is the reality of the fact that these cars are getting old and some of them very rusted, why kill another one off when it could be saved. Oh, maybe all the Cooper S owners want this so that their car becomes rarer:!:

I should add that I can't do this type of job "properly", have no intention of doing it and have never done it.

Maybe I am being naive or something but I can't see the difference in replacing everything around the numbers/distinguishing details and moving those numbers/distinguishing details to another body.

Steve

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1964 998cc Cooper
1971 Mini K x 2
1972 Clubman GT

Putting the legalities aside I think there is a difference between 'rebirthing' and 'refurbishing' eg a paddock find that has been sitting out in the weather and considerably rusted but the rego has run out years ago - vs a car that was written off in an accident and the body crushed but someone rips off the ID plate and sticks it on another car

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David L


My greatest fear in life is that when I die my wife will sell my Mini and tools for the price I told her I paid for them!

Yes panthersteve I think that you are quite right in that you are being naive, no offense meant, your words not mine. I can understand re shelling a rusted or crashed beyond repair Cooper s, but as soon as you try to give the new shell the original cars identity you are creating a fake.

I think we need some flexibility in thinking here. If someone had a Cooper S shell and fitted say, a new floor, new mudguards and a dozen other panels, would it still be a Cooper S body? I have seen some cars that have a genuine number correct body but just about every other identifying feature is gone, including engine (and number), trim, instruments, suspension etc . In fact, so few genuine Cooper S parts present that anybody would be cheeky to call it a Cooper S. On the other hand, I have seen some replicas that are totally perfect in every way but lacking a genuine numbered body. I don't believe that the body alone can nessecarily be the deciding factor. Some car clubs use a 9 out of 10 component factor and if you have those 9 genuine components, you are entitled to call it genuine. I know we'll never get agreement on that but it is possibly a fairer way of deciding.

In my opinion, every case has to be taken as presented and I do think that some cars could have a replacement body and still be correctly called a Cooper S. The problem is deceit and that is always going to be wrong.

My two bob's worth.

Al

Too right
Well put!!!

"The problem is that nobody (that I know of anyway) takes a bottle of acid with them when buying a car..."

I don't know about cars .... but a few years ago, if you wanted to buy gold in a Tehran market you carried a small stone which you swiped the object on. Then you added a drop of acid (which you carried in a small bottle) and, depending on what happened to the stripe on the stone, the price might be adjusted.

Good fakes are worth something but not as much as the real thing.

Cheers, Ian

i see it as this

genuine purchase = untouched, one owner, still as it was when it was bought, papers, receipts etc

genuine rebuild = rusted out shell repaired, maybe not matching engine number, all copper S parts throughout in a genuine cooper s shell. possibly with papers etc

genuine replica = 850, deluxe, cooper s running gear throughout. looks, feels like a cooper s but isnt

replica = 850, deluxe, not all cooper s running gear, looks like a cooper from the outside, but isnt even close on the inside.

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Aussie Leyland, Aussie Factory, Aussie Mini S.

Clearly no. In all vehicles, the identity rests with the original shell. The shell is what gets stamped. Even if it is rust repaired to the nth degree, it is still original. Transfer part of the firewall and the plate and shroud to another car, and that is rebirthing. It is illegal.


To give another blatant example: Say I had a blue falcon with the custom rego plate saying "blue ford". I lend the car to a friend who writes it off. The insurance company pays me the $20k that it is worth and I buy the same model car in the same colour and add my personalised plate that says "blue ford". Just because it looks the same, has the same type of engine and the same rego plate does not make it the same car. It is not the same car and never will be. I realise rego plates are different but the concept is not.

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Cheers
Alec
1275LS - July 78 - XNFAD18Y/102918

I agree that faking a car to make money is fraud simple as that.

But isn't a Cooper S the sum of all its special parts that make it a Cooper S. so surely if there is say 20,000 parts and you change just the shell e.g. 1% of surely its still an original car.

I have a genuine 1969 Riley Elf I have changed both doors, the boot, sills, windscreen, grill, boot floor I have owned the car for 25 +years, is it original I am starting to get concerned.

I also have a genuine two owner Austin Cooper never been a part but needs to be restored.
Looks like I am going to need to get a an old shell to cut up get the panels to replace the rusty ones.

No changing panels with the same panels to keep it original, its still Original. This guy has no interest in originality

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Stop Licking the Dog...I Don't Care Who Started It

see,,, this issue will never ever go away

soooo many things come into play here

the other thread & this thread are going to keep going for a long long time ey?

i don`t have the answer,,, wish i did

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

no one does.

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tim
68 Deluxe 1293, HIF44, megajolt/EDIS4, daihatsu alternator..

'a mini is for life, not just for christmas!'

Well said Matt.

Off to the Muster in the AM. Finishing an assignment at the moment. Need to ZZZZZZ.

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Cheers
Alec
1275LS - July 78 - XNFAD18Y/102918