Ausmini
It is currently Mon Apr 29, 2024 1:46 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:47 am 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1789
Location: Hunter NSW
My opinion is when built all panels the factory used to build that car make it origonal,bolt on panels should of been stamped to go with that car like a9xs or big Healeys once you go hacking out and replacing panels with either new or secondhand you have made joins or plug mig a panel it is not origonal no more it is a repaired shell or restored to look factory


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:25 am 
Offline
religious status
religious status
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:19 pm
Posts: 39643
Location: near Baulkham Hills, NSW
Back then, these things were assembled on the line with Deluxes then Mini Ks, and 99% of the panels are the exact same as a common Mini.
They had a sticker or something to ID them as an S build.
IMO the biggest body difference was the Triplex windscreen. :lol:
It's not as though an S wore an alloy or titanium body...

I reckon provided the firewall and rad shroud remains unmolested, it's kosher to replace whatever other panels needs doing during a resto. :wink:

_________________
DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:33 pm 
Offline
Mods rock!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5079
1275LS wrote:

Clearly no. In all vehicles, the identity rests with the original shell. The shell is what gets stamped. Even if it is rust repaired to the nth degree, it is still original. Transfer part of the firewall and the plate and shroud to another car, and that is rebirthing. It is illegal.



This has always been a question of mine (and I think many others).

At what point would it change from a repair to a re-birth? Nearly all panels are available new, and for that matter, it is still legal to use second hand panels, so if the car was rusted and all that was worth salvaging from it was the firewall and little else. If we repaired this car and used say one or two donor cars from which to obtain spares is this re-birthed or repaired?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:33 pm 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:46 pm
Posts: 1305
Location: Outback Mini Man
its not a rebirth if you are repairing it. rebirthing is the practice of the chop shop, steeling cars, changing id's and flogging the car off as legit when its not.

you would have to put the body number on another body. you could replace 99% of the panels, and still have the same body number, it is the same body.

it was birthed with that number, it still has that number so its no being rebirthed. You havent made two cars one, its still the same shell.

_________________
Aussie Leyland, Aussie Factory, Aussie Mini S.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:14 pm 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:34 pm
Posts: 3414
Location: Cowra
I think the differnece between rebirthing and repairing is

Repairing/original: the radiator shroud and firewall have never been removed, it has been repaired around these two items

Rebirth: the firwall and shroud have been removed and placed on another shell.

As long as you dont touch the firewall and shroud everything else is fairgame


Thats my definition

Brenton

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:35 pm 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:24 am
Posts: 2274
Location: Wollongong
Bubbacluby wrote:
I think the differnece between rebirthing and repairing is

Repairing/original: the radiator shroud and firewall have never been removed, it has been repaired around these two items

Rebirth: the firwall and shroud have been removed and placed on another shell.

As long as you dont touch the firewall and shroud everything else is fairgame


Thats my definition

Brenton


Yeah +1 on that way of looking at it.

It would have to be a real basket case if the firewall was un-usable.

_________________
Image
68 Morris Cooper S Mk1 (*ex 78 1275 LS 4th last built, 70 Morris 1500 OHC & 70 MiniMatic)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:38 pm 
Offline
Causing or creating vexation

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:32 pm
Posts: 19116
phillb wrote:
Bubbacluby wrote:
I think the differnece between rebirthing and repairing is

Repairing/original: the radiator shroud and firewall have never been removed, it has been repaired around these two items

Rebirth: the firwall and shroud have been removed and placed on another shell.

As long as you dont touch the firewall and shroud everything else is fairgame


Thats my definition

Brenton


Yeah +1 on that way of looking at it.

It would have to be a real basket case if the firewall was un-usable.

It is not hard to need an inner guard though and on the Mk2 the inner guard is very important.

Have you noticed that there is a lot of experts in the subject of re-birthing on this forum. :shock: I hope that the police are not looking.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:48 pm 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:54 pm
Posts: 1789
Location: Hunter NSW
Repairing/original: the radiator shroud and firewall have never been removed, it has been repaired around these two items

Rebirth: the firwall and shroud have been removed and placed on another shell.

But if car needs a new front, inner outer guards or had in a previous life or bulkhead has been butchered for a webber air box if you repair it does that mean it is rebirthed tha remember they didn't build them to drive to church on sundays you come across all problems reguarding orginalty where does it stop


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:51 pm 
I think thats what turns some people off buying Coopers, too many dodgey ones out there pretending to be the real deal.
ill stick to my 1275LS :D


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:56 pm 
Offline
Causing or creating vexation

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:32 pm
Posts: 19116
mini maxx wrote:
I think thats what turns some people off buying Coopers, too many dodgey ones out there pretending to be the real deal.
ill stick to my 1275LS :D

It is very hard when the codes on the net that claim them all to to be 022X2S4M09 car numbers or 12YD/Ta/H engine numbers. :x
Then the armchair experts chime in...

I will stick to the Morris 1100's. For some reason there is not a lot of faking going on. :lol: :lol: :lol: (except when they try to sell an 1100 as an 1100S :x)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:28 am 
Offline
1360cc
1360cc
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:41 pm
Posts: 12310
Location: Rockingham - Collie WA
GT mowog wrote:
This has always been a question of mine (and I think many others).

At what point would it change from a repair to a re-birth? Nearly all panels are available new, and for that matter, it is still legal to use second hand panels, so if the car was rusted and all that was worth salvaging from it was the firewall and little else. If we repaired this car and used say one or two donor cars from which to obtain spares is this re-birthed or repaired?


Ah the old "Ship of Theseus" paradox :lol:

I think Douglas Adams puts it best in Last Chance to See
Quote:
I remembered once, in Japan, having been to see the Gold Pavilion Temple in Kyoto and being mildly surprised at quite how well it had weathered the passage of time since it was first built in the fourteenth century. I was told it hadn't weathered well at all, and had in fact been burnt to the ground twice in this century. "So it isn't the original building?" I had asked my Japanese guide.
"But yes, of course it is," he insisted, rather surprised at my question.
"But it's burnt down?"
"Yes."
"Twice."
"Many times."
"And rebuilt."
"Of course. It is an important and historic building."
"With completely new materials."
"But of course. It was burnt down."
"So how can it be the same building?"
"It is always the same building."
I had to admit to myself that this was in fact a perfectly rational point of view, it merely started from an unexpected premise. The idea of the building, the intention of it, its design, are all immutable and are the essence of the building. The intention of the original builders is what survives. The wood of which the design is constructed decays and is replaced when necessary. To be overly concerned with the original materials, which are merely sentimental souvenirs of the past, is to fail to see the living building itself.


A Cooper S is a Cooper S

_________________
Too many cars, and too little time.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:40 am 
Offline
1360cc
1360cc
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:41 pm
Posts: 12310
Location: Rockingham - Collie WA
or for those who don't like reading Trigger's Broom.

_________________
Too many cars, and too little time.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:59 am 
Offline
Mods rock!
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:02 pm
Posts: 5079
awdmoke wrote:
A Cooper S is a Cooper S


Yes, but given all that has preceeded in this thread, how do you / is this defined?

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:59 am 
Offline
1360cc
1360cc
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:10 pm
Posts: 6337
Location: Ipswich Qld
awdmoke wrote:
or for those who don't like reading Trigger's Broom.


:D :D :lol: :lol: :D :D

Only Fools and Horses, classic :wink:

_________________
1964 998cc Cooper
1971 Mini K x 2
1972 Clubman GT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:35 pm 
Offline
1360cc
1360cc
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 6654
Location: Melbourne, VIC
This may be a bit off topic but I'm thinking the healthy discussion and debate in this thread is no doubt related to the notion that a Cooper S has a greater value compared to most other model Minis. But value, which is generally measured in monetary terms can also be assessed in phsychological terms. And value is in the eye of the beholder.

I thought about various scenarios and how I would rank the following cars (for example) in priority order, assuming I had the funds to acquire them:

(a) A Mark 1 Cooper S that competed at Bathurst, has the original engine block but with various body and mechanical changes since it raced.

(b) A BMC works rally Cooper S that competed in the Southern Cross rally but has had most of its works items removed and substantial body changes so it looks like a normal road-going car.

(c) A genuine one-owner MK II Cooper S that is in absolute concours condition with original sales documents and service history, and all original parts and panels in place.

(d) The MK II Cooper S I bought new from Kellow-Falkiner in 1969 (if I could find it), even if it had many replaced parts (seats, wheels, Weber in lieu of SU's, etc.) and some damaged or replaced panels.

My head says a, b or c but my heart says d.

What would you do in a similar situation?

_________________
ex-NSW Police 1970 MK II Cooper S
VMCI #43


Last edited by winabbey on Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 85 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

© 2016 Ausmini. All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.