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 Post subject: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:26 am 
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Location: blackbutt,nsw 2529
I'm curious to find out how a car judge decides whose the winner when theirs no 100 percent proof to say whats original or not.ive looked at a lot of engine bays and their are so many little details that are different.the owners of the concourse cars all claim their cars have been restored back to original so how does the judge prove otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:34 am 
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just about every car club in existence has broken up or split in half at one point because of this problem...

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:40 am 
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A lot are better now than when they left the factory


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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:55 am 
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Location: Wollongong, NSW
I haven't seen concourse judging at any shows in my couple of years with minis. Is anyone brave enough to run them?

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Location: Melbourne, VIC
mark2man wrote:
I'm curious to find out how a car judge decides whose the winner when theirs no 100 percent proof to say whats original or not. I've looked at a lot of engine bays and their are so many little details that are different. The owners of the concourse cars all claim their cars have been restored back to original so how does the judge prove otherwise.

A great question. I raised this a few years ago and there was plenty of discussion. As mentioned above there are few if any true concours events these days. Most are show and shine where compliance with factory build is not as important.

See my lengthy post here - http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic ... 7&p=990189

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:48 pm
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Location: Hobart, Tasmania
I watched a couple of guys concourse judging an MG show a couple of years ago. It was kind of bizarre, two blokes dressed in white dust coats carrying clipboards, peering into the engine bays, pointing at hose clamps and writing down notes. They were judging heaps of different models, probably covering 40-50 years of MG. I can't see how the two guys could have been experts on all the different models that were being judged. I bet they were just basing it on whether the details looked about right, rather than loads of glaringly obvious modern stuff having been fitted.

Tim

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:20 pm 
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The real issue is original (but tatty.... oops I meant patina :) versus shiny replication of someone idea of what the original bit looked like.....

Good luck, Ian


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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:16 pm
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Location: North of the Harbour planning my next mini project
My 10c worth....
In the mini scene these days I think there are very few minis which could be judged in a concourse class. As most have been restored and over the past 50 years have had changes from original, even if slightly. Then there is the issue of finding judges who know what to look for. Are the hoses correct, are the clips correct, are the floor mats correct and undamaged? How many early cars still have correct rubber mats? Are the dates on wiper motor, generator, locks all correct? How far do you go? I look at every MK1 Cooper S and note the variations in how the brake pipes are run, especially for the booster. Not many still have the correct clips on the fuel hoses or correct plug leads. Most have had the upholstery recovered and the carpet is not correct. I know my car has had many changes over the years due to issues with incorrect parts availability or upgrades over the years. Plus ideas change, what I did to my car in 1990 when it was restored I probably wouldn’t do now?
So now days we have show and shines and judge for cleanliness and preparation, at least this way everyone has a reasonably equal possibility of winning their entered class with only the original class for owners of cars who have been lucky enough to still own their 50+ year old mini and keep it original or lucky to come across an elusive “barn find” which just needs a dust off and it looks like new?
If enough members of our club were interested in entering a “concourse” class then I am sure we could find a judge who has an 80 to 90% knowledge of what to look for but so far I don’t think there is enough interest in Sydney for this? But I am welcome for enough people to prove me wrong.
As an organiser of the MCC show and shine events I am always open to ideas from members and mini enthusiasts to try and improve the show experience for entrants as without them there would be no show and shine.

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:57 pm 
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Nice words...and fairly succinct...at least some people out there still have the right idea and the common sense to talk about it without fear or favour :D

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:33 pm
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Location: Melburn
Timbo wrote:
I watched a couple of guys concourse judging an MG show a couple of years ago. It was kind of bizarre, two blokes dressed in white dust coats carrying clipboards, peering into the engine bays, pointing at hose clamps and writing down notes. They were judging heaps of different models, probably covering 40-50 years of MG. I can't see how the two guys could have been experts on all the different models that were being judged. I bet they were just basing it on whether the details looked about right, rather than loads of glaringly obvious modern stuff having been fitted.

Tim


I was lumped into judging the Ferrari concours a few years back; marked up any car that wasn't red, and nearly casued a riot. Was not invited the following year :D


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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Location: Brisbane
The bottom line is that a car is no longer "original" after it leaves the production line. Something would have changed on its way to the showroom and after say, a test drive. The fuel in the tank would have been replaced, the air in tyres altered, the oil gets changed as do the filters, the battery needs replacing and the list goes on as the car gets older. Picky yes, but it is a fact.

There are some very nice restorations of our beloved cars but they will always remain that, they can never be original again.

I have judged many car shows and in the earlier days we always had a concourse section, but I can assure you it was a thankless task. Trying to judge MK1 Cooper S for instance was a nightmare because as we know there were many little production changes along the way. The judging became so pedantic that some I judged with would mark down the car because all the nuts on the head studs were not facing the same way..... of course they did not leave the factory that way. The brands of nuts and bolts, studs, screws etc changed as the suppliers changed.

Some owners go to a lot of trouble to get NOS parts for a restoration or rebuild, and I admire them for that. I have done the same thing on some of my restorations, but no matter how many dollars you spend it will never be an original car again.

John

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:31 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:57 pm
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Location: queensland
Having been asked to judge at many events including "true" concourse events, its a thankless and unenviable task. As John points out a concourse car is very different from an original car, and many larger events make allowances for this, including a preservation class.
The truth of the matter is very seldom are there 2 cars that honestly battle for supremacy. In my experience the basics need to be followed before the details. Panel fit, paint, panel quality (most are full of ripples or wrongly restored panels). A car with genuine parts will always trump a car with replacement or remanufactured parts, despite differences in condition. Yes no one person can claim to know every modification and change and date of such done by the factory, but in reality it is seldom required to make a decision.
I know its upsetting when someone has just spent $60+k paying for their Mk1 Cooper S to be restored only to find they are beaten in a concourse (or even loosely guided show and shine, which often provides the judges with little scope for differentiation between details ). But as a judge it is sometimes difficult to bite your tongue and not to say " because your beautiful and shiny car is full of Chinese knock off crap, and your panel guy needs glasses.

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:30 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:43 pm
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Location: Brisbane north
low n blown wrote:
Having been asked to judge at many events including "true" concourse events, its a thankless and unenviable task. As John points out a concourse car is very different from an original car, and many larger events make allowances for this, including a preservation class.
The truth of the matter is very seldom are there 2 cars that honestly battle for supremacy. In my experience the basics need to be followed before the details. Panel fit, paint, panel quality (most are full of ripples or wrongly restored panels). A car with genuine parts will always trump a car with replacement or remanufactured parts, despite differences in condition. Yes no one person can claim to know every modification and change and date of such done by the factory, but in reality it is seldom required to make a decision.
I know its upsetting when someone has just spent $60+k paying for their Mk1 Cooper S to be restored only to find they are beaten in a concourse (or even loosely guided show and shine, which often provides the judges with little scope for differentiation between details ). But as a judge it is sometimes difficult to bite your tongue and not to say " because your beautiful and shiny car is full of Chinese knock off crap, and your panel guy needs glasses.

Very well written reply. Having competed in concours on and off (in a different marque) for the last 20 years or so, this is so true.

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Last edited by ausdino on Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:10 pm 
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I doubt you've judged many (any?) "true" concours events....

A "true" Concours judged cars on style, engineering, and originality ... as in original, meaning not seen before, new, ground breaking ... not copies of something spewed of the production line years ago...

Todays polishing contests are just that ...and the efforts involved are not to be sneezed at.. But the contestants should know how many points are to be awarded for "showroom" condition including whether points are lost for using copies of original parts or over restoration... In most cases "presentation" is the key.

A few years ago I had the opportunity to see a whole bunch of "original" Cooper Ss being judged. I would suggest pretty well none of them were representative of a showroom model but more of what BMC might have liked to produce ( or maybe what customers might have preferred) if there wasn't a budget and schedule to get cars out the door.. i.e. not very original at all....

Somehow I doubt concours would have been Issi's thing....

Cheers, Ian


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 Post subject: Re: concourse judging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:38 pm
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Location: Sunshine Coast
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/concours-d-elegance2.htm

A well known, and probably the most respected, concourse event in the world is Pebble Beach. The above link outlines the criteria for judging such competitions which essentially boils down to two sections. Firstly there is the "Class Judging" and then there is the "Honorary Judging".

To quote from the article:- "Each car starts out by being judged in their respective group by a class judge. The class judge is a recognized expert in the category and they are assigned to judge each car based on the originality and authenticity of the vehicle. These two traits are very important because a Concours d'Elegance focuses much of its attention on preserving automotive history. Each car must be correctly restored without blemishes, dents or marks on any part of the vehicle. Each vehicle is striving for a perfect score of 100, and whichever vehicle comes closest to that score in their class is awarded the First in Class honour." There is also a comment in the article that the car should be "historically accurate" relative to how it started life and, indeed, the quality of the cars as presented often exceeds that of when they left the factory.

The next stage of the judging (Honorary Judging) "takes a more subjective approach to judging each car and focuses their attention on the design, style and elegance of a particular vehicle." This is where the Ferraris, Jags, Cords etc etc step to the fore. Unfortunately the humble Mini is not going to feature here and is unlikely to ever win a major multi vehicle concourse event.

Given that Mini shows are essentially a one class event, the judging is confined to the "Class Judging", with perhaps a fragment of "Honorary Judging" in favour of the top end models because of their improved/added designs and functions. Fortunately, most clubs have members who have been around Minis for decades and have an intimate knowledge of what represents a good car. This usually extends to a better than average understanding of how the cars were equipped when they left the factory and can judge what are original/genuine parts, quality of paint and panel, interior presentation etc etc.

Many of our judges are model specific because of their experience, for example someone may have owned many Cooper Ss and knows them inside out such that he/she may be better qualified to judge a Cooper S than anyone at Pebble Beach, but they would still have a very good understanding of the other models to be able to arrive at an informed judgement. They are very good "Class Judges".

Are our judges judging a "Concourse" event? Absolutely (by the Pebble Beach definition of a "Class Judge") and I genuinely appreciate each and everyone of them for their dedication to a thankless task. It is so much easier to take a back seat, walk around the cars, catch up with mates, eat a pie or two and then go home instead of suffering the stress and angst of judging. Thanks judges.


Last edited by coatsie on Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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