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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:45 pm 
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998cc
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Location: Adelaide
I have a Scorcher dissy with custom advance curve to suit the engine specs and all Bosch internals, together with an MSD Blaster 2 coil. Well made and super reliable.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:31 pm
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Location: North Rocks
HI All
Just backing up what Kevin said about Lindsay Seibler's dizzy I did a lot of testing with these dizzys on the dyno and they are well worth the money, these are not just another electronic dizzy.
They are a totally rebuilt new dizzy new bushing in the shaft the fazing is all set up correctly so the rotor is at the post when it fires, the rotor button is of the correct length and the dizzy caps are a special with brass pins so the gap to the pin is correct distance, these dizzy's are a work of art.
I have been using the dizzy's from Victoria and they are the best points dizzy on the market specially the little round ones and they are not cheap.
It took Lindsay lot of talking to get me to run one of his dizzys because I hate electronics, with these dizzys I can hold the engine at 9000 RPM and at that RPM it is just as smooth as it is at 5000 RPM.
These dizzys will have 20 deg's of spark after they fire so they are burning every thing in there, one thing that was really impressive was down at 5000 RPM in the race car I had trouble getting a solid reading as it was getting off the cam and running a very rich mixture the points could not cope with it, but with Linsay,s clean as.
These dizzy,s with the unleaded fuel will be a lot better in helping with the plug fouling we suffer with the points.
Graham Russell

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:59 pm 
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848cc
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Hi, Graham Russell asked me to post some details of the ignition system that both he and Dr Mini have used very successfully.
I am happy to put it in this post which started out as whats the best programmable ignition , because I don't believe a used adjustable product is best for most people. Too many curves confuse totally, and unless you have very good tuning aids like a dyno, then different graphs are impossible to define which suits your car best.
What I do know is plenty of people have distributors with quite suitable curves, but for a variety of reasons they do not work
Todays fuels burn differently to the past, often slower and need a lot of energy to get the flame travelling and burning completely all the fuel.. especially alcohol fuels like E85
To put it simply, points systems do not produce enough spark to complete combustion, and electronic ones without a smart module only really turn points into an electronic switch ( generally very reliably but no output)
The ignition system Graham talks about ( it is a distributor with smart module, hybrid coil and inductive technology leads set) is not a new style of spark, but currently I do not know of any for under $2000 . It is a totally redesigned brand new and highly modified distributor and works as an inductive Spark system and will throw a spark over 2" (50MM) from 500rpm to 9500rpm, and this spark lasts for 20 degrees of crankshaft duration. All normal and most ignition system fire a spark for ONE DEGREE and some high performance mini distributor we have tested won't make a spark even jump 1/2"
These kits are all tailor made curves to suits customer engine specs, and our preference is to lock the shaft solid in race cars to assist with the massive engine harmonics that 1275cc often have. Yes cars start perfectly with 32 degrees at crank
We have many race customers who quietly keep this to themselves, as the gains they have made are astounding.
In road systems we find massive increases in torque, less throttle required when cruising, better economy
, better starting
There are now many cheap distributors you can buy for under $200 If thats all your tune is worth, My advice is don't buy one, spend that $200 one a cheap switch/ module and get a distributor company or a mini business to regraph yours
Performance costs, don't forget for a system to work you need compression , leads , clean and tight terminals , good earths correct supply voltages, and if you wish to buy a dissy or a system , not only check on fancy advance curves, ask how much output does it have and how long does the spark fire for
Good luck Lindsay Siebler
I have a small movie of the spark jumping 2" in a load test plug to 9000rpm , If interested in a look pm me

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:15 pm 
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how do you measure how many degrees the spark fires for Lindsay? are you using an oscilloscope and calculating degrees based on time? my (possibly wrong) maths says that 20° at 1000rpm is 1.7ms, and 0.19ms at 9000rpm

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:42 pm 
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848cc
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Hi Simon , this is not quackery... Long duration spark has been around a while, and now in the USA MSD who used to say this did not work have just released a long duration spark system, similar to this. The theory works out
In my case it shows on a specially modified distributor calibration machine like a Vane or Crypton or whatever that does not show the pulse as a point , but the actual spark. and how long in degrees it is. Any engine with a 4 cylinder lucas unit can use them minis mgb austin a30 Datsun A14 escort BDA etc. first group N mini with it fitted now has Qld lap record on E85 I think thats enough explanation on high energy long duration spark from me . Cheers

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1965 Mk1 Cooper S
1970 Colt 1100F SS
2014 Mitsubishi Imiev fully electric daily driver
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1971 Twin cam Escort ex Uk championship winning rally car project


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:47 am 
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not doubting it one bit - I'm absolutely sold on the benefits of really good ignition systems.

I run a megasquirt with 4x LS1 coils (wasted spark, not sequential), it's fixed at 2ms spark duration, so I was just curious about the duration in time rather than degrees.

I roughed a curve for it a few years ago and it's been good enough, some time with a dyno and someone who knows what they're doing has eluded me so far

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:07 am 
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Location: near Baulkham Hills, NSW
Just to add, it now need 3° less advance than before. It pulls sweet from below 2000 rpm with an RE282 cam and 1.5:1 rockers.
Even with 38mm chokes in the Dellorto. No, 36s are not better, it ain't a DCOE Weber. ;)
Edit
It's got a bathtubbed head, advance was 39°, now at 36°.

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Last edited by drmini in aust on Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:10 am 
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998cc
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Location: Central West
Chris.Williams wrote:
kiwiinwgtn wrote:
Thanks for the replies. I will look into the CB box.

I am trying to reduce the intial advance at start up. running about 20 degrees static all in at 33 degrees at 3500 rpm. runs like a cut cat but hard to start. killed another starter so need to do something about it.

Sent from my SM-J530Y using Tapatalk

I use this on my supercharged motor, can do anything you want to the advance curve. A & A+ version
http://www.123ignition.nl/product.phtml?id=190


Hi Chris,
I have been researching a lot lately regards electronic programmable ignition systems, I really like the 123 tune+ but down the track I would like to build a turbo A series motor and I do not entirely understand how the 123 handles boost ignition retarding as it doesn't appear to have a port for MAP or MAP sensor tube, etc? Do you know if this is a separate component that needs to be purchased and wired into the unit perhaps?

I have been looking at the CB performance and Aldon Amethyst electronic programable ignitions systems as they both have MAP connection sensor options.
https://www.cbperformance.com/Articles.asp?ID=320
http://www.aldonamethyst.co.uk/

edit, After a bit more research I see you really can do anything to the advance curve, it would appear I need to order the vacuum advance version which I do not need currently but doubles as boost sensor for curve retarding if running supercharger or turbo.

Image below indicates vacuum port as optional
Attachment:
Wiring_NegTunePlus.png


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:53 pm 
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848cc
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Hi, I would have to be honest and say once upon a time I would have thought that programme ignition was the ants pants, but my recent experiences make me believe it is not necessarily so.
Graham Russell said to me that although your ignition systems are brilliant, you will have trouble selling them in Australia because everybody thinks the Poms know how to make them best.
I am almost 100% certain that both of the mappable boxes listed in the recent discussion are made in China , not UK or USA , certainly one of them.
The problem with both of those is they are intended for low output spark, which DOES NOT BURN ULP PROPERLY.
If you read Aldon warranty they were designed for points, and limited electronic..... The low output is needed to protect the electronics.,
The 123 is a fine bit of adjustable kit, it will fire a spark at the time you want it to ( If you really know what that time is), but again it does not have a big spark output to burn the ULP properly
We have replaced all those systems, and a properly made ignition system with long duration spark has gone better in every case
I am not trying to can individual makers , but technology in Australia is at the peak of the world (excuse pun)
Now to the case in point, we have just retuned one of the popular Opticon/ sprintex style of supercharged cars
This 1275 Car has several downsides to working well , a big cam with early technology, high compression, and a 2,76 diff ratio.10 psi boost HIF 44 Was not good to drive.
I would have thought we would have needed programmable or boost retard previously, but we built a unique long duration Peak Ignition distributor system with a high base timing and 24 degrees total. No starting issues.
Now goes exceptionally well, no flat spots even starts up a steep hill with that awkward diff ratio. No fouled plugs
I personally think the ignition Gurus are here in Australia. 70 odd happy users of the new long duration spark think so.

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1967 EX works rally mini restoration virtually complete OBL45F
1965 Mk1 Cooper S
1970 Colt 1100F SS
2014 Mitsubishi Imiev fully electric daily driver
1948 Allard M coupe Olds 215 v8 project
1971 Twin cam Escort ex Uk championship winning rally car project


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Location: Under the bonnet son!
I lost my loaded curve on my BlackBox, I was forced to buy a 10-year-old Windows Vista laptop via eBay so I could run the blackbox software again :P

At least the 10-year-old laptops are like 20 bucks these days...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:42 pm 
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998cc
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Hi Lomin,

Thanks for your post, I have been taking my time to digest it. A abstract from a 1985 Journal article helped give me a background to understand what you are are explaining.

Am I being naive in saying that with property set up electronic ignition the spark timing and 'duration' will be accurate to the requirements of the cumbustion therefore limiting the need for such a long duration? I have very little first hand experience with engine electronic ignition, just trying to get my head around it.


Article from 1985 below,

JOURNAL ARTICLE

Stabilized Combustion in a Spark Ignited Engine through a Long Spark Duration

Meroji Nakai, Yasuhiko Nakagawa, Kyugo Hamai and Masazumi Sone
SAE Transactions
Vol. 94, Section 1 (1985), pp. 406-415

Abstract

An investigation has been done on the relationship between spark ignition characteristics and combustion stability in a gasoline engine. The spark discharge parameters examined were the spark current, energy, and duration. It has been found that lengthening the spark discharge duration is particularly effective in achieving stabilized combustion. A longer spark duration provides a continued supply of electric energy as kinetic energy to the mixture around the spark gap. The analytical results of a constant volume combustion chamber test verify that a longer spark duration promotes flame initiation and makes reliable flame propagation possible. The length of the spark duration is regarded as the period from ignition to the onset of combustion pressure rise. The results of a combustion pressure analysis reveal that the spark duration must be longer than the heat release delay. The reason is that a long-duration spark shortens the initial combustion period, thereby making it possible to reduce the fluctuations that occur during that period. This is particularly important because such fluctuations are known to be the main cause of the cycle-to-cycle fluctuations in engine combustion. It has been found that the spark duration should be three to four times longer than the conventional spark discharge. A longer duration causes fuel economy to deteriorate because of the increase in electric power consumption. Experimental results confirm that a longer spark duration stabilizes engine combustion under such severe operating conditions as idling, heavy EGR rates and lean mixture operation.Image

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:56 pm 
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848cc
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Hi, an interesting read from 1985 ...
In our case, the mini engine basically needs to have combustion completed some where between ten and fifteen degrees after top dead centre.(TDC) to work well and produce power
At idle when timing is set at between 10 and fifteen degrees before TDC we have 30 degrees of crank duration to do that burning
At 5000 rpm and thirty degrees timing we have 45 degrees of crank turning to ignite the mixture again
That is a lot of time, so really its obvious that a normal spark of one degree rotation must struggle to ignite all the mixture in comparison to one that burns for at least TWENTY degrees.
This simple mathematics also highlights how inefficient most mini engines are . On dyno testing max power has been found to vary enormously between 25 and 40 degrees, ( 40 degrees would mean 55 degrees of rotation to burn the fuel ) it takes an awful lot of time to burn that fuel...... the lower the timing figure at which the engine produces max power, generally that engine is more efficient. On several of the cars fitted with long duration dissy the max timing was reduced,(Dr Mini ) so efficiency was altered for the better. a Modern high performance v8 may only need 22 degrees total , where are we missing out
Long duration could not be done with points, and not with low technology electronics
i also should add ULP is not our worst fuel for burning , E85 or alcohol are trickier.
i don't pretend to be a genius, but I try to write common sense in all my replies
Cheers Lindsay Siebler

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1967 EX works rally mini restoration virtually complete OBL45F
1965 Mk1 Cooper S
1970 Colt 1100F SS
2014 Mitsubishi Imiev fully electric daily driver
1948 Allard M coupe Olds 215 v8 project
1971 Twin cam Escort ex Uk championship winning rally car project


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:54 pm 
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848cc
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Location: Cherrybrook NSW
Hey all I am no expert but just out of interest i have been running the 123+ bluetooth and it has been brilliant for the last couple of years i tried the modules the black box and they drove me nuts the 123 is set and forget

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:24 pm 
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1098cc
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Just catching up on stuff with time on my hands. is there a website for Peak Ignitions i could not find one.

Thanks

Bernard


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:20 pm 
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I added peak ignition's details in the how to forum.
Email Lindsay for details.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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