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VIN Numbers
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=98675		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  edcomm [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  VIN Numbers
Hi Guys, about to purchase my first mini (1965 Morris Mini Deluxe). I've looked at it - great car - but forgot to check VIN plate.

The guy emailed me a copy of Pink Slip report and its only showing the prefix (which is correct YMA2S2); however, I am assuming there shold be additional numbers after the prefix - or is it not unusual for just the prefix to be present (it's a fully rebuilt vehicle). He's checking the rego papers tonight when he gets home from work and I am hoping its on there. And I'll of course chekc the VIN plate before I hand over my cheque...

As I type this it feels like a dumb question but thought I would ask...
Author:  Bill B [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
Which state are you in?
Have recently gone through registering my 1966 mini in NSW and had some bureaucratic hurdles.
Basically minis in 1960s didn't have a Vehicle Identification Number. They had a Car Number which should be on the BMC identification plate on the firewall behind the 2 master cylinders, and the same number stamped into the firewall just below the BMC identification plate - usually 4 digits only but 1965 cars could have only 3 digits. Technically, those 3 or 4 digits are the equivalent to a modern "vin number". There's more to the explanation, but not relevant if you're in another state.
Problem with authorities using just 4 digits is that every model of every car will most likely have a car with the same 4 digits, so authorities like to put the YMA2S2 as a prefix and call it the VIN number.
The YMA2S2 is the model code.

There is also a code number stamped into the top radiator shroud. This is NOT the car number but is often wrongly taken as it.This was one of my problems. This is the production code used on the assembly line. The first DeLuxe body would be stamped 001 on the radiator cowl but its Car Number on the ID plate and firewall will be 501, as BMC always started at 501 for the Car Number.
Author:  edcomm [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
Hi Bill

I am in NSW - and thank you very much for that insight. I will check the VIN plate on the firewall (it's in Newcastle, Im in Sydney - I'm heading back up on Satruday).

So it's entirely possible that while there may be further digits after the model code prefix on the BMC Identification plate, the rego documents may carry only the model code of YMA2S2?

Thank you again for your help.

Ed
Author:  Bill B [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
Attachment:
KDE ID PLate 2.jpg
edcomm wrote:

So it's entirely possible that while there may be further digits after the model code prefix on the BMC Identification plate, the rego documents may carry only the model code of YMA2S2?

Ed


Any combination of numbers is possible with RMS!
This is the ID plate from mine (it is for a Cooper S so the Type number is different to yours):
The "Type" will be just YMA2S2 - no other digits added on the plate
The "Car Number" will just be the 3 or 4 digits - no prefix model number
My rego papers list VIN as YKG2S21197 (combining the Type with Car Number)

The number stamped on the radiator cowl is about 500 lower than 1197, but that number on the radiator cowl could be used on the rego papers because RMS have not a clue about these numbers.
Author:  edcomm [ Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
Thanks Bill - yes I am hoping that the rego papers will show the combo of both Type and Car Number and that this is all present and correct on the car.

Thanks agian

Ed
Author:  phillb [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
I’ve been thru this drama too.

How it was explained to me by rms was that the vin recorded on the rego paper needs to be literally what is stamped in the metal of the car only.

Unfortunately before the 1969 BMC only stamped the car number in the firewall and the rest of the info was on the plate. When Mk2 minis came out in 1969 such as the Mini K and Mk2 cooper s they started stamping both series and car number together on the radiator shroud so this is less problematic. What is stamped on the car is unique for that car.

Bill was fortunate that they actually agreed to include the series plus car number on the paperwork. Mine just has the number alone.

My Mini Cooper S is Car no 4801. In theory there would have also been a standard model Mini Minor Car no 4801 and a Mini Deluxe Car no. 4801 built.

So would be interesting if they ever turn up to be registered!!


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Author:  simon k [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
phillb wrote:
I’ve been thru this drama too.

How it was explained to me by rms was that the vin recorded on the rego paper needs to be literally what is stamped in the metal of the car only.

Unfortunately before the 1969 BMC only stamped the car number in the firewall and the rest of the info was on the plate. When Mk2 minis came out in 1969 such as the Mini K and Mk2 cooper s they started stamping both series and car number together on the radiator shroud so this is less problematic. What is stamped on the car is unique for that car.

Bill was fortunate that they actually agreed to include the series plus car number on the paperwork. Mine just has the number alone.

My Mini Cooper S is Car no 4801. In theory there would have also been a standard model Mini Minor Car no 4801 and a Mini Deluxe Car no. 4801 built.

So would be interesting if they ever turn up to be registered!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


what about the number on the radiator shroud for earlier cars? - my '66 van was registered with MV04 474 which came from the radiator shroud, dad's '68 S is registered with his M206 number
Author:  Bill B [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
simon k wrote:

what about the number on the radiator shroud for earlier cars? - my '66 van was registered with MV04 474 which came from the radiator shroud, dad's '68 S is registered with his M206 number

One of the problems I had was that the RTA/RMS had used the number from the radiator cowl on their records, like yours.
I was not aware that RMS had a VIN/Car/whatever for my car as it was last registered in 1992 and the paperwork kept by the owner in those days did not show a car/VIN number, only the engine number. So when I went to reregister last year, the number on the radiator cowl was still on RMS file and was used as the default VIN.
The problem with using the cowl number is that it is about 500 less than the Car Number on the firewall. In my case the number stamped by the factory on the cowl was 0699. In the dim past, someone looked at that number and recorded it as "6690". i.e. the right number but upside down.
So this wrong Vin number on the registration papers could cause an issue in the future: a prospective buyer might be suspicious that the number doesn't match any other numbers on the ID plate - and - they didn't make 6,690 Mk1 Ss.
When I approached RMS about the mistake, they sent an inspector to my house to see the car. His first reaction was to photo the radiator cowl. It took time to explain this is wrong for Mk1 Ss. Finally had the correct Car Number allocated to the car but with the YKG2S2 prefix although not required to stamp the prefix number into the body.
I left all this out of my reply to edcomm as hopefully it won't happen to him.
Author:  drmini in aust [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
The problem is the RMS book of lies for inspection says the numbers are on the radiator shroud. No mention of early cars, and they take it as gospel.
Author:  winabbey [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
The introductory paragraph to the marque registers held on this forum could be used as supporting evidence of the location and format of the body stampings and ID plate data. Not total proof, I know, but should be considered by the various authorities.
Author:  phillb [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
simon k wrote:
phillb wrote:
I’ve been thru this drama too.

How it was explained to me by rms was that the vin recorded on the rego paper needs to be literally what is stamped in the metal of the car only.

Unfortunately before the 1969 BMC only stamped the car number in the firewall and the rest of the info was on the plate. When Mk2 minis came out in 1969 such as the Mini K and Mk2 cooper s they started stamping both series and car number together on the radiator shroud so this is less problematic. What is stamped on the car is unique for that car.

Bill was fortunate that they actually agreed to include the series plus car number on the paperwork. Mine just has the number alone.

My Mini Cooper S is Car no 4801. In theory there would have also been a standard model Mini Minor Car no 4801 and a Mini Deluxe Car no. 4801 built.

So would be interesting if they ever turn up to be registered!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


what about the number on the radiator shroud for earlier cars? - my '66 van was registered with MV04 474 which came from the radiator shroud, dad's '68 S is registered with his M206 number


That’s true but it not meant really meant or intended to be used for rego. Although it’s handy as proof of what a shell was originally for us today it was always just an internal factory code to keep track of the raw body shell. In fact I reckon BMC deliberately started to hide that number to prevent confusion. That is prob why it was moved to the drain channel under the rubber. I think it is similarly hidden on other models like behind plates or under regulators.


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Author:  phillb [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
drmini in aust wrote:
The problem is the RMS book of lies for inspection says the numbers are on the radiator shroud. No mention of early cars, and they take it as gospel.


My experience was that the RMS DO have the correct info for early cars. Problem is that they don’t bother to look it up correctly. In my case I had to politely insist that they check again. (I had been contacted by someone who knew) ...sure enough they had looked it up incorrectly.

The other problem is inspectors who have... “been lookin’ at minis for years mate, it’s this number on the radiator shroud”


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Author:  1071 S [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
I think you're all making rods for your ...and others backs.

The (NSW) rego papers are very specific. "This certificate........... it is not proof of ownership..." What it also doesn't say is that its not proof of identity either....

It does record the "VIN/Chassis/Serial number". When you go for a blue slip the "official" will accept whatever number he can find stamped on the body. At the subsequent Pink Slip inspection he will want to see the number shown on the certificate stamped on the car.

I would not want to be trying to convince the inspector that, while it might be the correct model/serial number on the certificate it doesn't match the (different) stamping on the body because .........

And i would certainly not be buying a car that offers the rego papers as proof of identity....

I have UK cars and have considerable experience in interacting with both the NSW Motor Registries (in all their guises over the years) and vehicle inspectors over this very point....

I had an old Corolla at one time that was refused a Pink Slip because it was 3 inches too short :roll: I pointed out to no avail that the (riveted) Toyota iD plate showed it to be a KE17 ..and his DMV ID sheet was for a KE70 (I think those were the numbers) so his specs were not really relevant. Luckily, I had the keys in my pocket so I offered to discuss the rego inspection fee at the local police station... I think his response was a negative :lol: I didn't hang around to clarify....

Cheers, Ian
Author:  phillb [ Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
Ian I absolutely 100% agree with you. The rego papers are not proof of authenticity of the car.

However for me and I’m sure Bill would agree that it’s very frustrating if you have spent time or effort to restore a car and/or it’s a significant model and then the details on the paperwork is not correctly recorded? It shouldn’t be so hard to get it right and prevent some poor future owner from having to explain around the RMS’s mistakes.


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Author:  1071 S [ Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VIN Numbers
phillb wrote:
Ian I absolutely 100% agree with you. The rego papers are not proof of authenticity of the car.However for me and I’m sure Bill would agree that it’s very frustrating if you have spent time or effort to restore a car and/or it’s a significant model and then the details on the paperwork is not correctly recorded? It shouldn’t be so hard to get it right and prevent some poor future owner from having to explain around the RMS’s mistakes.
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I guess that as my point Phil.. What details do you as not being "correctly recorded".. and what RMS "mistakes" do do you see having to be explained??

My Rego papers do not include a space/entry for "TYPE" ...which is what the YK etc etc numbers are shown as being on the only two examples I have access to i.e. the photo above and the ID plate on a old 850 I have in the shed.

Both plates record the "SERIAL NUMBER" as a straight multi-digit number ..with no letters or symbols....

The RMS records the VIN/chassis/SERIAL number..... And what's on the paper should be what's on the car...

My local inspector is quite fastidious on this point having had his (elderly) Father (the owner of the business) have his Inspectors certification withdrawn because he incorrectly recorded an engine number during an inspection (got a couple of digits in the wrong way round). I strongly doubt he would approve your car if you showed up with what you might consider to be "correct" paperwork.... (but that doesn't match the ID stamped on the car.)

He ..and RMS will not accept the Chassis number (as recorded on Heritage Certificate) for registration purposes because its stamped on a removable plate (similar to the photo above).... Early UK Minis do not have the number stamped anywhere on the body.

They accepted the Body Number as that was listed on the Heritage Cert .and is stamped on a plate welded to the body.

Cheers, Ian
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