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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:55 pm 
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Hi everyone, after hearing a clunk clunk onset, I investigated and found beautiful sparkly oil

Image

Investigation found lots of play in the primary gear and showed the bearing failure on primary gear

Image

Some slight grooves in the crank surface unfortunately

Image

Gear box and engine assemblies look schmick to my eyes.

My questions:
* what would cause this???
* I am guessing remove crank, machine that surface, fit new primary gear with new bearing size? [edit: looks like it is a bush that comes in one size]
* Will a general cleanout of engine and gearbox suffice to get rid of the swarf, or do I really need disassembly, full clean and proper reassembly?

Cheers guys. Also I'm using this as a silver lining to tidy wiring, reconfigure where things are mounted and switch to AN hoses and fittings in some places to tidy the engine bay up. Trying to get a positive out of this!

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Last edited by Morbo28 on Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:33 pm 
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Here's a big, closer look at the crank surface...would I get away with not removing and machining?

Image

Does this seem like a good option and if so, am I right in assuming my crank is the "stepped crank" type they refer to here?

Image

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Hi, the causes of your failure could be many, or a combination of many.
In my opinion, and you or others may differ, It would appear to be caused by excessive heat build up in the primary gear, due to one or multiples of below. I am also assuming this is your 1275 supercharged car.

Clutch slip or deliberate slipping on takeoff , or gear changing, or a tall diff ratio backing up a steep hill, or accomodating a flat spot by dumping the clutch .
A photo of flywheel surface would help, but crank also appears blueish on the smaller diameter.
There is the possibility the wear and tear on a high mileage supercharged car hard driven would do it, especially if the crank already had some of those grooves on the larger diameter
I do not believe if you wish to keep the car that the floating bush will last
The crank needs grinding by a crank grinder as the primary gear area is probably not in the centre line of the crank any more , and will need a special bush in another used gear as the replacement bushes have so little material to remove.
I personally would strip the entire engine and gearbox and throw away the oil cooler . There is metal everywhere
That inner bush is under enormous loads on a car with torque , cooked in a flash If the bush does not have enough clearance it will seize on the crank
I am sure you will enlighten me if I am wrong. BTW, how often do you change oil ? and what do you use ?
I have also had two brand new cranks from Uk where the primary gear does not run true, I.E, would run oval on rotation Cheers Lindsay Siebler

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:32 pm 
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Thanks Lindsay, that's very helpful, I reckon you're right on the cause. Some notes:
* I use Gulf Western 20/50 with a zinc additive and change the oil regularly, around every 2000k
* I have just under 10,000 kays on the engine
* yes, the supercharged engine
* I have a 2.9 diff
* I'm using the AP rally plate
* I treat the car with mechanical sympathy - no dropped clutches or excessive slipping...exxxccceeeeeppt - just before the onset of this problem I had a spark partial failure (insecurely attached dizzy cap) going steep uphill and it wouldn't run under load, and I was in a very dangerous, uphill blind fast corner road in a cutting with nowhere to pull over. So I did slip the clutch for a several times significantly to get out of danger so I could fix the problem - heaps of heat I'm sure

Disappointing that I have to teardown the engine, but not unexpected.

Here's a discussion on this topic that I found which supports what you've said: (from here: https://www.calverst.com/technical-info ... rop-gears/ )

Quote:
Primary gear bush failures.

Although not of immediate interest to many road-runners, mainly accorded to the racing scene, it seems to be a perplexing problem to a very large number of folk around the world. So I’m having a pop at trying to solve the problem wholesale here.

Distilling the myriad of ‘the symptoms go like this’ descriptions down from the various languages it was put to me in (some were highly entertaining where more than a smattering of ‘sign language’ was incorporated) – the end result was always the same. The bushes at one end or other, and sometimes both, had failed in their duties. Incidentally – some of the confusion when trying to sort the problem descriptions was down to miss-understandings about which end of the primary gear is which. To put the record straight, the end nearest the engine is the FRONT end. Consequently the end nearest the flywheel is then the REAR end.

The two biggest outstanding symptoms were severe oil leaks onto the flywheel/clutch assembly, and difficulty/impossibility in selecting gears. Strangely, these problems were still suffered immediately after refurbing the offending article, using ‘modifications’ suggested by some of the many Mini ‘specialists’ out there who all but guaranteed it’d cure the problems! Some bought new gears from other ‘specialists’ who make their product ‘special’ by using ‘specific machining detailing’ to ‘cure the problem’. Unsurprisingly these didn’t work either. So how’s this happening, and what’s the solution?

Front bush damage is caused by it becoming loose, spinning between the gear and crank, and generating an enormous amount of heat. This ruins the bush, destroying all clearances, and allows excessive amounts of oil to pass – both through the now much larger clearance between crank, bush and gear and past the primary gear seal. The latter happens because the primary gear wobbles about excessively so the sealing lip on the seal can’t do its job. Slightly less severely super-heated bushes cause them to move outwards, jamming the primary gear between the retaining clips and the thrust washer and crank shoulder. This is why gear selection becomes difficult/impossible. The primary gear won’t disengage drive from the engine, and is the main reason why the rear bush gets it’s thrust lip broken off. Even if the loose front bush isn’t immediately apparent. This lip does break off on it’s own though, but for the same reason all the other problems occur.

The ‘miracle cures’ to this have been legion over the years. Despite much nose-tapping and eye-winking, almost all solutions revolve around two themes - running a much bigger front bush to crank clearance and/or welding it to the primary gear. As many can attest to, even this doesn’t work. That’s because the cause isn’t being addressed. And that’s EXCESSIVE HEAT.

It’s generated by the slipping clutch – be that when gear changes are made, getting off the line, or badly set-up clutch. Magnified by the use of cerametalic plates. The slipping causes friction, generating a huge amount of heat. This spreads through the plate and into the primary gear. When the heat level becomes excessive, the bushes pinch on the crank, are grabbed and spun. This is magnified by using desperately-lightened pressure-plates in conjunction with the cerametalic plate where heat generated by the clutch isn't efficiently/effectively dissipated. The heat simply bleeds way into the primary gear. The cure? Initially and mainly - reduce the heat level. Simply achieved by either boring holes in the clutch cover (‘wok’), by welding on a suitably sized and positioned duct. (whichever, always cover with meshing to deter foreign objects from joining the fray), and use a sensibly dimensioned pressure-plate. Alternatively – further proper development. This is something I am currently looking in to – so keep your eyes open for the results!

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:21 am 
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The crank definitely needs a grind. Some people including nb racers have ground it down to 1.500" then used a standard 998 primary gear.

I have used floating bushes on a few cars no problem, but find they are always too long as supplied and need trimming.
Edit
These weren't turbo, blown or race motors.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:40 pm 
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Thanks Doc, that tip is much appreciated, great tip on the 998 primary gear! Will consider what to do...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:00 am 
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drmini in aust wrote:
The crank definitely needs a grind. Some people including nb racers have ground it down to 1.500" then used a standard 998 primary gear.

I have used floating bushes on a few cars no problem, but find they are always too long as supplied and need trimming.
Edit
These weren't turbo, blown or race motors.

Doc, If I fit the 998 primary gear, will everything else still work okay? Ie if I reduce the diameter of the front bush surface to fit 998 primary gear will all other dimensions work without alteration eg "rear" top hat of 998 primary, 1275 drop gears?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:05 am 
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Yes grind it to 1.500" same as the rest, keep 1275 thrust washer, use a 998 primary gear, everything will fit as normal.

However if you have A+ drop gears you would need an A+ 998 primary gear.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:57 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
Yes grind it to 1.500" same as the rest, keep 1275 thrust washer, use a 998 primary gear, everything will fit as normal.

However if you have A+ drop gears you would need an A+ 998 primary gear.

Valuable info, thanks 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:41 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
The crank definitely needs a grind. Some people including nb racers have ground it down to 1.500" then used a standard 998 primary gear.

I have used floating bushes on a few cars no problem, but find they are always too long as supplied and need trimming.
Edit
These weren't turbo, blown or race motors.


Doc the machine shop is machining the primary gear crank surface to 1.500" as you recommended.

I just had a thought - I haven't told them to machine the surface/shoulder where the primary gear thrust washer goes. Am I okay to keep it the same and run the 998cc primary gear with the std 1275 thrust washer? Or should I be getting him to machine that too?

EDIT: I got out of bed to check and measure, I realised I had a 998 and a 1275 to compare. The 1275 thrust washer will work fine by the looks of it.

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