Ausmini
It is currently Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:37 am

All times are UTC + 10 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Deseaming in NSW
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:59 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:17 pm
Posts: 42
Hi all

Just wondering if anyone can tell me, if you deseam your mini, does the work need to be engineered in NSW before registration?

Putting aside the workmanship etc... And assuming it is done by a professional, do we need to have it certified or is it regarded similar to (say) rust repair?

I am curious as I am thinking about it.

Thank you for the advice

Cheers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:06 pm 
Offline
religious status
religious status
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:19 pm
Posts: 39642
Location: near Baulkham Hills, NSW
I'm just amazed so many people have looked at your post and have nothing to add...... :(

I once owned a deseamed Deluxe project in the `80s but it never got the body finished, painted and registered. Only because it was too rusty when I rescued it from under a tree, so I parted it out.
This was before the current laws regarding the need to engineer stuff. Register a deseamed Mini back then, no problem Sir.
Now, I dunno. But there are still quite a few older deseamed Minis running about on the road.
Sorry I can't really help.
But somebody here must know what the current rules are re deseaming....

_________________
DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Engineered deseamed mini
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:09 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:17 pm
Posts: 42
Hi drmini

Thank you for the feedback, your response is much appreciated.

Yeah, not sure... There must be someone that has deseamed a mini and registered it in NSW.... I'd just like to know if there was any special requirements :)

Thank you again :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:19 pm 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc

Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 2:38 pm
Posts: 2210
Location: Huon Valley, TAS
This is a can of worms.

As you are affecting the structural integrity of the car I would suggest it would need to be engineered.

Yes there are some around registered. Some have been done well, some haven't. Some have rusted very badly there is a post on here, though I can't remember who's it was, who had their deseamed shell blasted and found lots of holes.

If not done properly they can open up like a sardine tin too.

Your best bet would be to talk to an RTA (RMS) approved engineer ad see what they say.

Cheers,

Dicko.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:34 pm 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:31 pm
Posts: 4663
Location: Sydney - strangely, I am glad of the sight of hills!!
RTA wrote:

Do I need an engineering signatory for minor modifications?

Vehicle modifications fall into three distinct categories:
    ‘Owner certified’ minor modifications which can be accepted for registration purposes without formal certification.

    ‘Engineering signatory certified’ modified production vehicles.

    ‘Engineering signatory certified’ individually constructed vehicles.

Owner certified minor modifications are generally those modifications which were optional equipment for the vehicle concerned. Owner certified modifications also include some non-standard modifications of a minor nature which do not affect the level of safety, strength or reliability of vital systems such as brakes and steering. These modifications have little or no impact upon the vehicle’s level of compliance with the Australian Design Rules.

Examples of minor (owner certified) modifications are:
    Engine changes where the capacity increase is less than 15% above the maximum size engine available for the vehicle (providing no major structural modifications are necessary and where noise and/or exhaust emission ADRs apply, all standard equipment such as carburettors, exhaust systems, exhaust gas recirculating valves, oxygen sensors and catalytic convertors relating to noise and emission control are retained and operate correctly).

    The fitting of a proprietary sunroof (if the modifications are of a minor nature only).

    Fitting a ‘package’ available as optional equipment for the vehicle (eg front disc brakes, power steering, alternative transmission and bucket or bench seats).

    Additional lighting eg fog & driving lights.

    Alternative wheels and tyres within the owner certified limits set by the Authority (see Vehicle Standards Information Sheet No. 9 Guidelines for alternative wheels & tyres).

    Fitting of handling enhancing suspension components such as roll stabiliser bars and up-rated shock absorbers.

Major modifications which fall outside the category of minor (owner certified) modifications require submission of certification by an RTA recognised engineering signatory. This is usually in the form of an Engineering certificate prepared by the signatory.


Deseaming a Mini is a modification that i would not consider reasonably falls under the category of owner certified modifications.

RTA wrote:
Any modification that would affect these crashworthiness safety standards should only be made on the advice of the vehicle's original manufacturer or an engineering signatory.


Deseaming a Mini would affect the crashworthiness of a Mini, and even though the relevant ADRs were not in place for the Mini production, this leads to a reasonable assessment that an engineering signatory is necessary.

RTA wrote:
Bodywork and interior

There are general requirements concerning alterations to the bodywork:
    No alteration may cause a hazard to persons due to exposed sharp edges or projections; and

    No alteration may cause a reduction in the level of safety or overall strength of the vehicle.


You need the engineering signatory to certify that your deseaming has not caused a reduction in the level of safety or overall strength of the vehicle.


The document that I have quoted from is available from the RTA website and is the first place you should look for guidance when considering any modification to your car. Follow the link above and you can get the rest of the details.

cheers
michael

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates ;-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:52 pm 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:12 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Perth, W. Australia
I'm also going down this road, not a full deseam though. I'm keeping the gutters. In my opinion, don't scimp on money in this area. Take it to a very well known body fab shop that has engineering abilities/consulting. As my shell is getting quite a big of fab work done, it's all getting done at the one shop at the same time. If anyone NEEDS to use filler in this area to complete the job, then they aren't up to the job IMHO.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:37 am 
Offline
1098cc
1098cc

Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:17 am
Posts: 1964
Location: san remo nsw
Just my two cents worth, but if you cut seam off and continus weld it, wouldn't it be stronger than the spot welds. Isn't that why the racing car builders strip the shells and mig/tig the seams that are spotted?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:48 am 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3183
Location: Burpengary, Queensland - Home of Tricky Performance Engineering
peterb wrote:
Just my two cents worth, but if you cut seam off and continus weld it, wouldn't it be stronger than the spot welds. Isn't that why the racing car builders strip the shells and mig/tig the seams that are spotted?


Yes!!

_________________
"Not Speeding Officer..........Qualifying"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:45 am 
Offline
Causing or creating vexation

Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:32 pm
Posts: 19116
Archangel007 wrote:
peterb wrote:
Just my two cents worth, but if you cut seam off and continus weld it, wouldn't it be stronger than the spot welds. Isn't that why the racing car builders strip the shells and mig/tig the seams that are spotted?


Yes!!

Yes and No! It depends on the person doing the welding. :lol:

Race cars are not road cars. We don't drive on the road with helmets and harnesses. They don't seam weld for safety, they do it to improve the performance, to make it handle better.

But another important thing is that cars these days are designed for safety and progressive crumple. They use the spot welds as part of the crumple mechanism. They just pop one at a time as they progressively ley go. If you seam weld a modern car it will make it less safe for the occupants.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:02 pm 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:31 am
Posts: 3183
Location: Burpengary, Queensland - Home of Tricky Performance Engineering
So, to answer the question, would it make it stronger (and taking into account that the person doing the welding is competent) then the answer is YES!

_________________
"Not Speeding Officer..........Qualifying"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:07 pm 
Offline
1275cc
1275cc
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2004 6:31 pm
Posts: 4663
Location: Sydney - strangely, I am glad of the sight of hills!!
Seam weld the race car using a stitch weld rather than continuous? it has the advantage that it adds the necessary stiffness to the shell, but will stop a fatigue crack in its tracks. if you happen to whack something, the crumple zones outside the cage should still work, though not as well as spot welds, otherwise all the energy of the impact gets transferred directly to the human squishy bits.

The spot weld vs continuous weld falls into the crashworthiness category of needing an engineers certificate for a road car .....

cheers
michael

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates ;-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:53 am 
Offline
848cc
848cc

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:49 pm
Posts: 194
Location: Gawler SA
Mini's have crumple zones??...it is basically all single skin construction, hence why the Mini ceased production because it couldn't meet current safety standards.

Deseaming done correctly [back plate/full outer weld with NO grinding ... just "hammered" down flush with minimum bog will be a lot stronger than spot welding.

_________________
1974 1150cc Leyland Mini S racer,
1975 No motor Leyland Mini "ute"
1991 IPRA Honda Integra (in the build)
1995 Land Rover Discovery 300Tdi

CAMS Scrutineer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:00 pm 
Offline
religious status
religious status
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:19 pm
Posts: 39642
Location: near Baulkham Hills, NSW
DA9jeff wrote:
Mini's have crumple zones??...it is basically all single skin construction, hence why the Mini ceased production because it couldn't meet current safety standards.

Deseaming done correctly [back plate/full outer weld with NO grinding ... just "hammered" down flush with minimum bog will be a lot stronger than spot welding.

YES Minis have crumple zones, for example the 2 holes at top of the inner guards on a Clubby (with a plastic plug in) are there to provide initiation of the crumple when you have the misfortune to hit something head on.
They also all have a `collapsible' steering column provided by the bus-like steering angle, it is designed to bend forwards into the screen if you hit something.
Trust me it works, I have 1st hand knowledge from a high speed altercation with a tree in 1965.

_________________
DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 10 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 66 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

© 2016 Ausmini. All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.