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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:12 am 
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1098cc
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Location: melbourne, victoria
Hey chaps,
Still keen. I am also in the midst of another snowboard project so I will finish that and then see. There is a k11 near me that has a cooked auto box. I might gonlook tomorrow. The auto is a stronger engine with more bridging in the galleries so could be a good option.

I like the idea of the cg13. Any reasons I should consider something else?
My key likes are:
- fits well without heaps of bay mods
-the engine cost is pretty cheap compared to b series/4efte.
- the motor seems to perk up a lot with better with better manifolds and so forth.
- lower psi turbo with minimal engine mods

Anything I should know simon or Harley?


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:06 pm 
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floss wrote:
There is a k11 near me that has a cooked auto box. I might gonlook tomorrow. The auto is a stronger engine with more bridging in the galleries so could be a good option.


Don't risk it - the auto engine may be different to the manual one - and finding a manual box or replacement auto could be difficult you never know.

floss wrote:
I like the idea of the cg13. Any reasons I should consider something else?
My key likes are:
- fits well without heaps of bay mods
-the engine cost is pretty cheap compared to b series/4efte.
- the motor seems to perk up a lot with better with better manifolds and so forth.
- lower psi turbo with minimal engine mods


By the end of the build you will discover that the engine cost will only be up to about 7% of the total.
People buying engines because they're cheap over another engine because it's expensive is silly when that difference is only a few $100 because the whole project will be $1000s.

Doesn't matter what engine you buy - you still need a frame, shafts, possibly brake / wheels / tyres upgrade, body mods, exhaust, cooling, that sort of stuff and that's as good as the same for any engine.

Power can be another thing - lets say you get a stock CG13 (55kw) cause it's easily tunable and change the exhaust, inlet and cams and boost the peak power by 30% - you end up with 71kw. Is that still better than buying a G13b that's not as easily tunable but produces 75kw stock?

There's a different engine for every person, there's a reason for each one to go into a mini but they have to be correct. You can't put a 3cy Daihatsu engine in for power reasons if it's not powerful, but putting it in because you don't have to modify the engine bay is a good reason.

You've done your research and the CG13 is probably the right choice for you - but incase you're open to consideration from other engines of the same size:

Toyota 4EFE - Toyotas legendary build quality will see parts easy to get and a strong reliable engine - little bodywork in a clubman. Plenty of builds for help and inspiration.
Suzuki G13B - high power high revving engine for its NA size, takes low boost well in stock trim too apparently. Again, little bodywork in a clubman. Plenty of builds for help and inspiration.
Daihatsu charade 3cy 999cc - check out 666's moke build - subframe and engine bay look like they were barely even touched!
Daihatsu charade 1.3 - probably on par with the Nissan engine for obtainability, but a little more power and parts available through Toyota again.

:D


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:03 pm 
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1098cc
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Location: Armidale, NSW
Harley wrote:
floss wrote:
There is a k11 near me that has a cooked auto box. I might gonlook tomorrow. The auto is a stronger engine with more bridging in the galleries so could be a good option.


Don't risk it - the auto engine may be different to the manual one - and finding a manual box or replacement auto could be difficult you never know.

The auto is a closed deck block making it more desirable for boosted or large bore applications.
There's enough people who have changed to a manual from the CVT box that I don't imagine major problems, additionally pulsar gearboxes are also candidates for the manual gearbox so they shouldn't be too bad to find. As far as I have been able to ascertain the wiring is pretty much the same so no huge deal there either.

Harley wrote:
By the end of the build you will discover that the engine cost will only be up to about 7% of the total.
People buying engines because they're cheap over another engine because it's expensive is silly when that difference is only a few $100 because the whole project will be $1000s.


Totally agree! get the engine you want and try not to compromise... I said just about the same thing to floss via PMs :D

Harley wrote:
There's a different engine for every person, there's a reason for each one to go into a mini but they have to be correct. You can't put a 3cy Daihatsu engine in for power reasons if it's not powerful, but putting it in because you don't have to modify the engine bay is a good reason.

I guess I'd see the CG13DE as somewhere in between a 3 cylinder and the 4EFE / 4EFTE, it's a 4 cylinder, can get the equivalent to the G13 or over the 4EFE with easy mods or ones you'd have to do anyway(I should have an idea where it ends up in the next couple of weeks), but goes in without touching the wings(if you trimmed back the harmonic balancer which most do but I didn't), I guess the PITA that might be avoided with other engines is making an inlet manifold.
If you could get all the stock exhaust and inlet manifold on there'd be no need for an emissions test which with the CG13 inlet manifold isn't going to happen without cutting the firewall but may be possible with the other engines.

That said all through my conversion I've been looking at an empty clubby engine bay and saying, I'd be able to get a front mount rad in there and the exhaust wouldn't be as tight, an alternator mounted on the front of the engine and there'd be that bit more room to make it all just that little bit nicer and less cramped / stuffed in... not that I'm unhappy with Spot's engine bay :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:58 pm 
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1098cc
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Location: Armidale, NSW
Some stuff (not much detail but by the sounds it doesn't need it) on converting auto to manual:

https://www.micra.org.uk/threads/automa ... ost-617029

https://www.micra.org.uk/threads/my-mod ... ost-356034

https://www.micra.org.uk/threads/auto-t ... ost-252029

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A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 9:45 am 
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Maybe I could just leave it AUTO!
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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 4:51 pm 
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fuzzy-hair-man wrote:
I guess I'd see the CG13DE as somewhere in between a 3 cylinder and the 4EFE / 4EFTE, it's a 4 cylinder, can get the equivalent to the G13 or over the 4EFE with easy mods or ones you'd have to do anyway(I should have an idea where it ends up in the next couple of weeks).


Well Spot has been tuned and emissions tested (apparently it doesn't need to be emissiions tested anymore as it is ADR 27).

Anyway the engine didn't blow up, the tune was for the emissions test as well as chasing power, the fuel used was 98.

Peak power was 59.1 kW @ 5680 RPM (@ the wheels) and peak torque was 109.1NM @ 4379 (working backwards from hp and RPM, dyno sheet doesn't seem to have been corrected for gears/tyres).

The other figures to compare to are power @ the flywheel but I don't have a definitive means to calculate flywheel power... Adjustments for transmission losses seem to range between 15% and 44% which would give flywheel hp between 91hp and 114hp :? :?:
Others suggest there is part fixed losses and part variable with power.

The engine spec was chasing torque and drivability over outright power, ie long inlet runners and 4-2-1 exhaust manifold, a 4-1 manifold and shorter inlet runners or bike carbs could see higher hp numbers. Driving it around the complex where it was tuned and it felt like there was quite a bit of torque there. Some cams might be interesting...

There's strong torque (reasonably flat the whole way min 95.47Nm and max 109Nm) and is above 102Nm between 4240 and 5448.
4th @ 100km/hr is about 3900rpm so useful for overtaking, 3rd gear will get you to 100 km/hr @ 5500.

Dyno graph here:https://goo.gl/photos/XDUXfAdncnVrd6hT9

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A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 8:36 pm 
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Location: Wodonga - Vic/NSW border
very nice :)

best value performance increase to start with is getting the ECU tuneable

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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2016 11:25 pm 
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1098cc
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Thanks, I'm happy with it. Got to go see the engineer next (he's seen the frame and engine but not the whole car) then it's blue slip and d r i v e . . .

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A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 9:08 am 
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Hey Fuzzy,
Is the stock quoted KW at the flywheel?
Sounds like it should be fun to drive!
Good luck with the engineer


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 10:10 am 
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The stock figures quoted by the manufacturers is at the flywheel. Some of them leave on the alternator, water pump etc and some remove them so they aren't all the same...

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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2016 11:18 am 
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Location: Armidale, NSW
Yeah stock is going to be @ flywheel, in fact everyone seems to quote flywheel hp cause it's a bigger number... adjustments for transmission losses seem to take the form of adjustments for what you think you should have got / were targeting...

Frankly I think the torque is going to be more important in ordinary driving, but it's hard not to chase hp numbers...
(my Sprinter van is approx 2 ton and only 127hp but the torque is 299nm with a flatish torque curve it's quick enough for a van,... just not a mini)

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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2016 7:47 pm 
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Location: Armidale, NSW
fuzzy-hair-man wrote:
That said all through my conversion I've been looking at an empty clubby engine bay and saying, I'd be able to get a front mount rad in there and the exhaust wouldn't be as tight, an alternator mounted on the front of the engine and there'd be that bit more room to make it all just that little bit nicer and less cramped / stuffed in... not that I'm unhappy with Spot's engine bay :lol:


Seems to fit in there rather nicely lots more room up front...

http://www.theminiforum.co.uk/forums/topic/316309-clubman-micra-cg13de-cga3de-build/#entry3383415

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A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:52 pm 
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So at the risk of taking over this thread, I thought I'd update you guys on Spot's progress.

So Spot is registered after being engineered, no real major problems on either just little hiccups like speedo cables breaking, and RMS unable to access the engineering certificate for a while... and the insurance company putting the wrong letters in chassis number.

Anyway I've had it out for a couple of drives (including a 80 - 90km trip) and thought I'd give some impressions:
  • It feels really rapid, I've not driven very many fast cars (260Z, 300zx z32) but a seat of the pants and I'd put a 0-100kph at well below 10 seconds. It felt faster than the z32 but the z was a auto and possibly a bit sick.
  • The torque is enough that it would be no drama if 1st wasn't there, not just you can take off in 2nd but it means you are less likely to get wheel-spin taking off but also avoids a gear change. (this is on 10's)
  • It's deceptive having such a flat torque curve as it just accelerates without power-bands or waiting for things to happen.
  • I haven't got any carpet or underfelt on the firewall at the moment or soundproofing in the engine bay and the sound is not bad at all at 100km/h @ ~3000rpm
  • Despite the 10's effecting the gearing, 5th is nice, 2nd, 3rd and 4th in about the right place.
  • Handling is good, I'm probably still used driving other cars so not pushing the mini so much but still it seemed nice and predictable and mini-esque...
  • Torque curve makes it very easy to drive, hills were gobbled up without much / any change in accelerator position.
  • A mild winter's day (good for climbing :D ) and after about 90kms at 100ks and the temp gauge was on about half to two thirds (increases slightly but quickly after a bit of a blast), this is using the super 2 core radiator with a Spal electric fan (I doubt the fan came on as it comes on close to 90 degrees), leave it idling for a while and the fan comes on for a few seconds.
  • Oil pressure is high 80 - 90 when cold and revving a bit, but settles to 50psi at 3000rpm cruising and hot. (not sure what's normal for the cg13 but a thinner oil when cold might help)(just checked the micra manual and it reckons 53psi @ 2000rpm when hot so it seems within spec when hot)

Unfortunately I lost my front number plate on one of the trips (screws felt OK but weren't good enough it appears, I didn't want to drill new holes...stupid me... :oops: ).

https://goo.gl/photos/tDTfNV5UiLmxZQgR7
https://goo.gl/photos/WBry61w3bNJJ9FkK9

Funnily enough the ratrod look was entirely accidental but I'm starting to like it.

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Roads need more corners
A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss


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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:56 pm 
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sounds good - feels faster than your 1275 clubman then?

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 Post subject: Re: Micra heart
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:23 pm 
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1098cc
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Yeah I reckon, it's so much better behaved too, I worry less about being ingested by a weber... the clubby never got registered so it's a limited comparison.

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A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss


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