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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:14 am 
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harry33 wrote:
Hey PK, how's it going?

If you've got a bit of spare time, I'd appreciate some advice (if you're at all busy then don't worry about it!)...

Basically I am completely new to everything to do with panel beating and painting. I have a '76 clubman, the body of which is in fairly good condition. The only problems are:
- A little bit of surface rust (mainly around the edge of the roof, but there are other little 1cm spots scattered over the bonnet and roof)
- A few round dings on the sides and boot (the biggest is around 15cm across, and all of them are less than about 5mm deep)
- A 40cm long dent (about 5cm wide and about 5mm deep) on a door

The paint is pretty good everywhere except for around the rust and dents mentioned above.

My goal is to remove these dents (either by beating them out or using bog) and touch up the paint (or, if this isn't possible, respray the whole outside of the car).

So my main questions are:
- Is it ok to use bog for these dents? Or should I try to beat them out myself? Or should I take them to a local panel beater?
- How should I go about touching up the paint after these dents get bogged or repaired?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, but as I said before, don't worry about it if you're busy.

Cheers,



Hi Guys,

I just got this question from a member here and thought that I would post my reply, as I reckon it could help a few of you out.

(Sorry harry33,, hope you don't mind :mrgreen: )

I am in the process of writing a “how to basic panel beating” that will include, rust, dents, bog, section repairs (patching) and if you’re really luck,,, led wiping. But it will take time, as I wanted to do it with photo and video examples... I will do it as soon as I have time (along with the paint one as a final)

In the mean time, I hope this will tire you over.

It has been put up as 4 different posts in the one thread for easy of reading

... with no further jibba jabba I’ll get on with it.

RUST

A few things about rust. You need air, water and an oxidising agent. Once rust starts, it does not sleep, it will spread. Once you find rust you should nip it in the butt as soon as possible. So here’s what to do with it.

1.Remove paint from rusted area, you can sand it off or get it off with a wire wheel, or whatever you like

2.Sand off all the rust that can using course sand (or better garnet) paper

3.Remove the remaining rust with “Deoxidine” or “Rust Convertor”... Make sure that whatever it is, that it uses Phosphoric Acid as a main ingredient. Apply using steel wool and give it a scrub. Leave the wet acid on there for 20min. Then remove with Metho.

The reason for using deoxidine is that the rust is drawn into the pores of the steel, so by leaving it soak in acid, it will completely clean the panel.
You may find that after the rust is gone that the panel is rough, sand it smooth,,, or apply a fine coat of body filler.... but only once all traces of rust are removed
.
.
See nex post for dent removal


Last edited by Phat Kat on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:34 am 
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DENT REMOVAL

Have you ever ironed a shirt? When you have a crease, you push it out with the iron, starting at the edges moving inward till the fabric is flat. You do not just drop the iron on the crease, because it only makes the crease worse and more defined.

If you can Iron a shirt, you can remove dents. Its the same principle.
But let’s swap the shirt for a car panel, the iron for a hammer, and the ironing board for dolly.

1.Look at the dent, what panel it’s on and where it is on the panel. If it has damaged a body line or the edge of a panel, then that is the first thing you must restore. You must get your lines right before you do anything else. Then look at the shape, is it a flat panel? A curved panel? This is important for choosing the dolly you will use. You should pick a dolly with just a little more shape that then panel,, if its curved, then pick a dolly that is curved just a bit more,, flat, pick a dolly with no or only slight curve

2.Ok, remember our wrinkly shirt? Well we’re going to fix the dent the same way,,, start at the edge, get the shape right all the way around the edge. Once the edge is good, move in a little and do another lap of the dent... follow this process all the way to the middle. Always make sure that the dolly is behind where you are striking with the hammer, you should be hearing the dolly “clink” with each swing of the hammer.

That is the basics of fixing the type of dent asked about in the question. It will take a little bit of practice but if you can remember those basics you shouldn’t go to far astray. One tip though, do not hit hard at first, start soft and get harder till you start seeing the panel move. Do not hit to hard or you might stretch the panel and make more work for yourself. It is ideal to knock the dent out as far as possible (or even get it perfect) with hammer and dolly before reaching for the can of bog.
..
..
..
See next post for Bog


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:35 am 
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BOG

First of all, lets clear something up. Bog isn’t a bad thing. Not at all. It has its place. It is only bad when it is abused or used incorrectly. Here’s a couple of do nots:

1.Do not apply if you are trying to fill a dent deeper than 1/4 “ or 6mm for all you kiddies

2.Do not apply over rust. I mean it don’t. I’ll kick your arse if I catch you doing this. It will not stick longer than about 6-12months before cracking or falling off,, and it only takes a few minutes to remove the rust and do a proper job

3.Do not apply over paint. Only ever apply to bear metal. It will stick to paint (for a while) but even if you feather it perfectly into the panel, you will still physically see the edge of the bog when you pain over it,,, no matter how much paint you use, you will still see a strange “ring”

4.Do not deviate from the mixing ratio’s. Yes bog goes off quicker in hot weather, but if you put any less than the recommended amount of hardener in it, it will not set properly, even if it feels hard.


Ok, now for the correct way to do it:

1.Remove paint from an area 2/3 larger than the dent, this is so that you can feather the edges out properly

2.“Key” the area. This term means to rough up a surface so that another product can stick to it. With bear metal preparation for the application of bog, we key the surface with24 or 30 grit sand paper.

3.Once it is keyed DO NOT TOUCH IT, the oils in your skin will stop the bog from sticking properly... it will not stick for any longer than 7-9 years (if you’re lucky). Do not clean it with any chemicals, thinners, prepsol, metho anything. The residue these chemicals leave in the sanding grooves will also prevent proper adhesion. If you need to wipe of dust, do it with a clean, dry rag. If it needs cleaning, do it by sanding it again with the 24 grit

4.Get out a scraper, a palate, and your bog (and gloves!). If you’re at home and you don’t have a lot at hand, I have used Ice cream container lids for palates, and cut up pieces of ice cream container to use as applicator/scrapers.

5.Time to mix up the bog. The ratio is 50:1,, 50 parts filler to 1 part hardener... “great, how do I visualise that?”,, well think of it like this,, chicken egg to a green pea.... So if you had a blob of filler the size of a chicken egg, you would use a blob of Hardener the size of a green pea (or just a tiny bit bigger). When you are mixing, do not stir them together or you will get bubbles in it, you should knead it between your applicator and palate to mix it and push the air out

6.Apply bog to panel. Cover an area 2/3 bigger than just the dent so that you can feather it in properly,, this will help prevent the appearance of rippling

7.Allow bog to cure for 30min before sanding

8.When it comes time to sand, use the longest, widest backing block you can, I have one that fits a whole sheet of sand paper. Obviously, on really curved surfaces (like the C pillars) you can’t use the wider sanding blocks, so I also have ones that are 1/3 width. I would suggest using 80 grit, because it will take a fair bit off, but until you get used to it, it won’t hog it off too quickly, and then smooth it off with 120

Do not wet sand bog,,, its sometimes temping, but it is highly porous and will suck up water, then hold it under the paint, and then work its way through the bog, to the sheet metal and rust it out from under the bog.
..
..
..
See next post for Paint Touch Ups


Last edited by Phat Kat on Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:36 am 
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PAINT TOUCH UPS

This will be hard for me to explain properly without pictures or showing you. I will try to write this as clearly as I can, but if it does not make sense, or is unclear please say so and I will try explaining it differently. Complete resprays are easier than GOOD touch ups, but often complete resprays are not practical due to time or money restraints.

First thing to do is get your colour mixed and matched. To do this, i would suggest removing the number plate flap and taking that your paint store so they can match the colour.
.
.
To make this easy, I will give a masking guide, relevant to mini’s.

- If you are touching up a spot in the middle of a bonnet, leave the complete bonnet exposed and mask the rest of the car, be sure to lift the bonnet and mask the front guide right into the engine bay to avoid overspray getting in there

-if you are touching up an area to on the bonnet close to the right hand edge, mask the entire car leaving the entire bonnet and right hand guard exposed (obviously if it’s the left hand side, do the same) ...(same masking applies for touch ups to top of guards)

- If you are touching up the bonnet close to the edge near the scuttle panel (panel between bonnet and windscreen) mask entire car leaving the bonnet and scuttle panel exposed (same masking applies for touch ups to scuttle panel

- If you are touching up the front guards, MASK THE DOWN FRONT side of the A pillar seam, and the rest of the car leaving only the guard exposed

- If you are touching up the A panels, MASK DOWN THE BACK SIDE of A pillar seam, and the rest of the car leaving only the door and A panel exposed (same masking for repairs to front door)

- If you are touching up centre of the door, mask the entire car leaving door exposed

- If you are touching up the rear edge of the door, mask entire car leaving only the door and rear side of car exposed MASK DOWN THE FRONT SIDE OF C PILLAR SEAM (same masking for repairs to front edge of front of the rear side panel)

- If you are touching up there rear side panels, mask entire car leaving only the rear side panel exposed MASK DOWN THE FRONT EDGE OF THE C PILLAR SEAM

- If you are touching up the rear panel, MASK DOWN THE REAR EDGE OF THE C PILLAR SEAMS, mask or better still remove the lights, boot badges, boot handle.

- If you are touching up the roof, mask entire car leaving only the roof exposed, don’t forget to mask the underside of the drain holes in the drip rail
..
..
..
Ok, now doing an effective touch up, requires a lot of gun control. And, a lot of understanding of how different gun angles will affect the coverage/pattern

I would strongly suggest you practice on a sheet of news paper, or something other than your car.

Typically, when you are spraying, the gun should remain at 90 degrees to the panel on the horizontal plane, and 90 on the vertical plane. This is the correct angle for spraying.

When touching up a panel, you need to bleed the new colour into the old.
Lets go over to the testing paper. Aim at the paper, get your distance right (remember, thumb on the fluid tip, pinkie on the job) and spray for about 2 seconds. Have a look at the shape of the pattern and the different consistencies in coverage. If you fan is set right, you should have a long oval shape. Look at the centre of the pattern, the colour is the thickest here, and as you look towards the edge it gets lighter and fades out.

Now, keeping the same vertical plane, aim the gun at 30 degrees to the panel and spray for 2 seconds. You will see that the colour is the richest at the edge where you were holding the gun and at the other edge it slowly fades out... this is part of bleeding

Now, get two sheets of news paper and open them out, side by side just overlapping so that you effectively have a really long sheet of paper. In the middle of the long sheet of paper, get a texter put your hand on the sheet of paper and trace it. So now you have a palm sized circle in the middle of the paper.

Get your gun, aim it at 90 by 90 at the right edge of the circle (don’t spray, we are just going thru the motion at the moment), now turn your hand to the right till you get that 30 degree angle again. This is the angle that you would open the trigger at, then bring it back to 90 degrees with the trigger in, move it to the left hand side (still holding that 90 degrees) then turn your hand to 30 degrees when you reach the left hand edge of the circle and then release the trigger. And thats how you bleed. The area inside the circle is your repair and you are bleeding it into the other sides.

I would suggest you practice this till you are confident, maybe try some different angles and see what works for you.
..
..
..
Ok, so the car is masked. Using 800 grit sand paper Key the entire area that is exposed, all the way out to the masking tape. (actually, it is better to sand before you mask).. the aim is not to take the paint of, but only to sand till it is no longer glossy.

1.If you are only doing a couple of repairs (or just one) I would recommend buying a spray can of ecth primer (if there is bare metal exposed) and a primer filler. With the etch primer (if needed) only give the repair area 2 light coats. You do not need to bleed the primer into the old pain, just cover the bare metal. Then (after 20min) apply the first coat of primer filler, cover the area, again you do not need to bleed, but overlap it onto the old paint by 70mm. Apply 4 coats with 5 min between coats. Allow at least 3 days to cure before going to step 2.. (you can move on the next day, but the longer you leave it the better.. but no more than 5 days)

2.Time to guide coat. Apply 1 extremely light dust coat to the primer. You are not trying to paint it black, only give it just enough to see a speckly covering

3.Using a sanding block and 600 grit sand paper rub ONLY THE GUIDE COAT off. Once it is gone, there will be no orange peel left and the repair SHOULD be flat

4.Guide coat now gone, time to paint. First prepsol the panel, then tack rag it. Remember your bleeding technique, start at 30 degrees open trigger, bring around to 90, move across the repair and swing out to 30 and release. Do 3 coats like this, by which time the colour should be obvious over the repair section. Don’t forget, 5 min between coats

5.Just to assist the bleeding, do 2 dust coats. Start 300mm off the edges of the repair in every direction and finish at 300mm off the repair

6.Have a look at how its coming along. It might be good, or it might need a little more either bleeding or colour (or both). I will not be able to tell you, but by this point I would hope you would have some understanding of gun manipulation and would be able to work it out on your own... (if not take some good photos and PM me and I’ll see what I can do)

7. Once you’re satisfied with the bleeding and colour, give the ENTIRE PANEL thats THE WHOLE EXPOSED PANEL NOT JUST THE REPAIR, 5 coats of clear with 5 min between coats.

8.After 3 hours you can carefully remove the masking

9.After a week you can start the compounding process (exactly the same as what it mentioned on this page of this thread in this procedure http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic ... 0&start=75 .. step 17 onward)

Ok, now that is one of about 5 different repair techniques, but probably the easiest. Remember to practice and experiment with the bleeding until you are well and truly comfortable.

Can any of you guys, micowen, Trixi, Bad Arse Mini, miniDave, or any of the other spray painters on here seen anything I’ve missed? Please feel free to point anything out.


Last edited by Phat Kat on Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:33 am 
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PK - fantastic.
In para 7 of paint touchups when you say paint with clear do you mean 5 coats of clear paint or 5 coats of thinners only over the entire panel.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:02 am 
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Good on you PK i'm sure some people will get some benefit out of your imformation and obvious experience, should make some people maybe have a go at something that they were probably not game to try due to not knowing where to start.

Colin.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:41 am 
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crisonic wrote:
PK - fantastic.
In para 7 of paint touchups when you say paint with clear do you mean 5 coats of clear paint or 5 coats of thinners only over the entire panel.


Sorry, I'll Clear that up ( :lol: )

Clear coat, as in top coat or clear paint yes. You put it on exactly the same way you would any other paint.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Cheers Phat, thats great for a basics how to!
Other things I would love to see eventually only leed to more in depth tutorials and confusion. :D
This includes the use of "dog hair" over nikki.
Dog hair for those who have not heard of it is a fibreglass nikki. K&H do a good one called KAHGLASS.
Anyway, another time for that one.
Once again, Phat, you've come through again.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 6:40 pm 
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Thanks, this is perfect!

Just one thing I don't really understand with the dent removal.. If you have a dent in the outside of a door or something, and you can't really access the other side of the dent with a hammer (because it's sort of between the two sides of the door, if that makes sense..), what can you do to push the dent out?

Cheers,
Harry


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Thanks Phat Kat. :D

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:10 pm 
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Depending on the dent, and its actual spot on the body, pushing it out may not be the answer, instead you may have to pull it out. Dent pullers can be a cheap tool to buy.
More explaining for Phat to do! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:27 pm 
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harry33 wrote:
Thanks, this is perfect!

Just one thing I don't really understand with the dent removal.. If you have a dent in the outside of a door or something, and you can't really access the other side of the dent with a hammer (because it's sort of between the two sides of the door, if that makes sense..), what can you do to push the dent out?

Cheers,
Harry


I have done similar types of repairs with a slide hammer and the ends of the rear beaver that cannot be accessed at all from the inside. I did it with a slide hammer, however I didn't use the stupid self tapper. I brazed a few 5/16" nut on to screw the slide hammer in to and gently pulled it out. You can also vary the angle of force with this technique.

You could do the same with a door, or carefully cut out the inner door frame, repair the skin and then weld it back in.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:37 pm 
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Moderators.......this is one heck of a thread - should be in the 'How To' area of this forum.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:39 pm 
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Another way to GT mowogs way (GT mowogs way is probably the better way I think) is to braze a large washer in the dent and make a hook on the end of the dent puller/slide hammer to hook on the washer.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Rodney wrote:
Moderators.......this is one heck of a thread - should be in the 'How To' area of this forum.


+1 :D


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