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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:39 am 
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Wrt to the two potentiometers...the only thing I can think of is that there are two different circuits used by the ECU for slow speed (Normal driving)/high speed (Full throttle etc) response from the throttle...what does the ECU description say about inputs from Pins 1 and 3?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electr ... -world.htm

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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 8:59 pm 
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9YaTaH wrote:
Wrt to the two potentiometers...the only thing I can think of is that there are two different circuits used by the ECU for slow speed (Normal driving)/high speed (Full throttle etc) response from the throttle...what does the ECU description say about inputs from Pins 1 and 3?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electr ... -world.htm



As far as I know is the BMW TPS is unique to the BMW bike ECU. Which has the ability to read the first 20% with finer detail then picks up the rest of the sweep to WOT. The Haltech has 3 wires to the TPS as does my Microtech ecu. Therefore I have had to pick one of the two pins and compromise with 0% to whatever, which makes tuning a compromise and less then accurate. As stated above it's not a matter of grabbing another TPS it won't fit the bike throttle bodies. If rewiring two pins to one make for one 0-100% sweep possible I'll be over the moon.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:58 am 
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dalmeny wrote:
As far as I know is the BMW TPS is unique to the BMW bike ECU. Which has the ability to read the first 20% with finer detail then picks up the rest of the sweep to WOT. The Haltech has 3 wires to the TPS as does my Microtech ecu. Therefore I have had to pick one of the two pins and compromise with 0% to whatever, which makes tuning a compromise and less then accurate. As stated above it's not a matter of grabbing another TPS it won't fit the bike throttle bodies. If rewiring two pins to one make for one 0-100% sweep possible I'll be over the moon.


Good luck with that...another reason for the double pot set-up may be to give the right acceleration progression across the range matched to the BMW engine characteristics (check out the law of potentiometers...not exactly linear)...

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 4:10 am 
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Since you are using coil-on-plugs instead of a wasted spark coil pack, do you need a cam signal to identify number 1 firing?
If so, how do you plan to add the cam signal (use the distributor with a modified pick-up to identify number 1 cylinder?)?

Paul

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 5:43 pm 
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G'day champions - awesome to see some discussions! The last week has been both successful and unsuccessful. The successful part is that, despite having no air temp sensor or throttle position sensor (purely because the parts hadn't arrived and I was impatient) I managed to get the engine running and sounding mean. I didn't run it for long as the ECU assumed that the thorttle was closed (understandably with nothing connected) and assumed that the air temp was 120*C. Understandably it didn't run for long - but alas, once the ignition timing was confirmed at TDC, it fired up relatively quickly. It was awesome. It sounded red hot. Cannot wait to get it going again. Who wants to see a video?

The unsuccessful part is that the head gasket (modified BK450) does not work in this application with a K1200 head. It may work on other heads (K100 or K1100) but the coolant galleries were open to the atmosphere and leaked like a siv... no seriously - this was something out of nightmare the amount it was leaking green stuff from between the block and head. No biggie, this was after the first start so no damage has occurred. In order to help me fix a few niggling oil leaks, I pulled the engine out of the car to do this one.

dalmeny wrote:
The distance you spaced the MED pulley out will require you to space the fan pulley out the same distance to keep the belt straight. Also check that the centre of the crank sensor is over the teeth, it looks a bit far across.

I have just read the last post. Now if I am reading this right the BMW TPS, which has 4 pins, can be modified by joining 2 of the pins into 1 wire, which creates and single sweep action, 0-100%. If this is correct it's taken 8 years for me to find the solution :shock: I would love a pic of the wiring at the TPS.

Lastly on the injectors, stand bmw were way too small, 370cc were way to big. Without going back and having a look I think I finished up with 260cc or there abouts out of a v6 Commodore.

When you remove the tooth from the trigger wheel take note of what degrees (ie degrees from your crank sensor) the Haltech recommends


Thanks Steve - I'll have a look at the crank position sensor and ensure it is in the right spot. All the belts are lined up after I moved everything over a smidge. It seemed to work okay but I'll double check. Yes you've read my assessment correctly. I will get you a pic of the wiring this weekend as I hope to get it back in the car and running. Hopefully it does work!

Yep - agreed. I ended up with Bosch 775 injectors from a V6 magna. They should do the trick, but we will see. Running the standard BMW fuel pressure reg that is in the fuel rail. That's what you're running hey? Also running a pretty speccy fuel pump that's probably overkill.

9YaTaH wrote:
Wrt to the two potentiometers...the only thing I can think of is that there are two different circuits used by the ECU for slow speed (Normal driving)/high speed (Full throttle etc) response from the throttle...what does the ECU description say about inputs from Pins 1 and 3?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electr ... -world.htm


Thanks 9YaTaH - they aren't inputs so to speak as they are subject to what is happening in the workings of the TPS. They are a function of the input voltage (Pin 2) and the position of the potentiometers which is based off of throttle position. Agreed that the double pot set up may be some fancy thing that BMW thought of that I have not considered, but this is what we are here to do - learn and experiment. They may not be exactly linear, but any solution that gives some reading from 0-100% throttle movement, even if it is slightly exponential, is better than having a solution where there is only fidellity between 0-20% and the same readings from 21%-100%.

ECU tuning will be able to account for any discrepancies as a result of non-linearity. Remember, the ECU is not just reading off of TPS to schedule engine functions such as ignition timing and fuel injection. It also reads MAP pressure. One day when I add it in, it will also have an O2 wideband controller.

murty wrote:
Since you are using coil-on-plugs instead of a wasted spark coil pack, do you need a cam signal to identify number 1 firing?
If so, how do you plan to add the cam signal (use the distributor with a modified pick-up to identify number 1 cylinder?)?
l


Hey Paul, good question mate. If you'd asked me that same question 3 years ago I would've had NFI what you're talking about, which was largely when I'd commited to running the haltech with COP lol.

It currently is running wasted spark because I don't have a Cam position sensor. I will keep this in my back pocket for later as I don't think it would be too hard to modify the intake cam pulley and have another reluctor sensor referencing "Home" position so that it can run sequential firing.


Fingers crossed some replacement oil seals arrive this week and if they do, I'll have the engine in the car and ready to turn the key this weekend with the aim to get it idling nicely. I'll leave you all with this:

New vs old head gasket.
New = custom Cometic MLS for K1100 conversions
Old = modified BK450 with bits of gasket goo''d into place to make up the differences

Image

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:04 am 
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Location: California, USA
Ah, I see. Do you have to hard wire the coils for wasted spark, or can the ECU "logically" connect them together if you wire them individually?

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 9:19 am 
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jpodge wrote:
G'day champions - awesome to see some discussions! The last week has been both successful and unsuccessful. The successful part is that, despite having no air temp sensor or throttle position sensor (purely because the parts hadn't arrived and I was impatient) I managed to get the engine running and sounding mean. I didn't run it for long as the ECU assumed that the thorttle was closed (understandably with nothing connected) and assumed that the air temp was 120*C. Understandably it didn't run for long - but alas, once the ignition timing was confirmed at TDC, it fired up relatively quickly. It was awesome. It sounded red hot. Cannot wait to get it going again. Who wants to see a video?

The unsuccessful part is that the head gasket (modified BK450) does not work in this application with a K1200 head. It may work on other heads (K100 or K1100) but the coolant galleries were open to the atmosphere and leaked like a siv... no seriously - this was something out of nightmare the amount it was leaking green stuff from between the block and head. No biggie, this was after the first start so no damage has occurred. In order to help me fix a few niggling oil leaks, I pulled the engine out of the car to do this one.

dalmeny wrote:
The distance you spaced the MED pulley out will require you to space the fan pulley out the same distance to keep the belt straight. Also check that the centre of the crank sensor is over the teeth, it looks a bit far across.

I have just read the last post. Now if I am reading this right the BMW TPS, which has 4 pins, can be modified by joining 2 of the pins into 1 wire, which creates and single sweep action, 0-100%. If this is correct it's taken 8 years for me to find the solution :shock: I would love a pic of the wiring at the TPS.

Lastly on the injectors, stand bmw were way too small, 370cc were way to big. Without going back and having a look I think I finished up with 260cc or there abouts out of a v6 Commodore.

When you remove the tooth from the trigger wheel take note of what degrees (ie degrees from your crank sensor) the Haltech recommends


Thanks Steve - I'll have a look at the crank position sensor and ensure it is in the right spot. All the belts are lined up after I moved everything over a smidge. It seemed to work okay but I'll double check. Yes you've read my assessment correctly. I will get you a pic of the wiring this weekend as I hope to get it back in the car and running. Hopefully it does work!

Yep - agreed. I ended up with Bosch 775 injectors from a V6 magna. They should do the trick, but we will see. Running the standard BMW fuel pressure reg that is in the fuel rail. That's what you're running hey? Also running a pretty speccy fuel pump that's probably overkill.

9YaTaH wrote:
Wrt to the two potentiometers...the only thing I can think of is that there are two different circuits used by the ECU for slow speed (Normal driving)/high speed (Full throttle etc) response from the throttle...what does the ECU description say about inputs from Pins 1 and 3?

http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electr ... -world.htm


Thanks 9YaTaH - they aren't inputs so to speak as they are subject to what is happening in the workings of the TPS. They are a function of the input voltage (Pin 2) and the position of the potentiometers which is based off of throttle position. Agreed that the double pot set up may be some fancy thing that BMW thought of that I have not considered, but this is what we are here to do - learn and experiment. They may not be exactly linear, but any solution that gives some reading from 0-100% throttle movement, even if it is slightly exponential, is better than having a solution where there is only fidellity between 0-20% and the same readings from 21%-100%.

ECU tuning will be able to account for any discrepancies as a result of non-linearity. Remember, the ECU is not just reading off of TPS to schedule engine functions such as ignition timing and fuel injection. It also reads MAP pressure. One day when I add it in, it will also have an O2 wideband controller.

murty wrote:
Since you are using coil-on-plugs instead of a wasted spark coil pack, do you need a cam signal to identify number 1 firing?
If so, how do you plan to add the cam signal (use the distributor with a modified pick-up to identify number 1 cylinder?)?
l


Hey Paul, good question mate. If you'd asked me that same question 3 years ago I would've had NFI what you're talking about, which was largely when I'd commited to running the haltech with COP lol.

It currently is running wasted spark because I don't have a Cam position sensor. I will keep this in my back pocket for later as I don't think it would be too hard to modify the intake cam pulley and have another reluctor sensor referencing "Home" position so that it can run sequential firing.


Fingers crossed some replacement oil seals arrive this week and if they do, I'll have the engine in the car and ready to turn the key this weekend with the aim to get it idling nicely. I'll leave you all with this:

New vs old head gasket.
New = custom Cometic MLS for K1100 conversions
Old = modified BK450 with bits of gasket goo''d into place to make up the differences

Image


I’m running an adjustable fuel pressure regulator in the line. Where did you purchase your cometic head gasket from? I got mine from MED, but I don’t think they do them anymore.

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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 5:44 pm 
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murty wrote:
Ah, I see. Do you have to hard wire the coils for wasted spark, or can the ECU "logically" connect them together if you wire them individually?


They're still wired individually - Coil 1 for cyl 1, 2 for cyl 2, 3 for 3 and 4 for 4. So not wired together in a conventional wasted spark (1 and 4 same trigger - and - 2 and 3 same trigger) which is what will make it easier to go back to running sequential firing if a Home/Cam sensor was added. Super handy and super cool (and easy)

dalmeny wrote:

I’m running an adjustable fuel pressure regulator in the line. Where did you purchase your cometic head gasket from? I got mine from MED, but I don’t think they do them anymore.


Ah okay. I'll see how we go with the standard K1200 fuel pressure reg which I think is rated at 3.5Bar. Yep - got it from MED. It's just a bit tricky to find. It's under the 73.5mm MLS gasket link and in there just click the drop down box to select the one for the K1100 (this should be okay for the K1200 heads... I hope!)

https://www.med-engineering.co.uk/cylin ... ket-73-5mm

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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2020 7:45 pm 
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It lives!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVq13I6 ... ture=share

The throttle position sensor idea works - it gives a sweep from 0-100 but it’s not overly linear. It should be able to be either calibrated through ecu settings or just by adjusting the tune to.

A huge thanks to all that have helped me, in particular Ev that came around to drop off a replacement starter motor after the original died just as it was ready to go. Also a huge thanks to everyone who has helped, messaged me or been involved one way or another. It’s been awesome. still a way to go to get it on the road - exhaust, tune, interior/dash.

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-1968 Morris Mini 850-


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 7:28 am 
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Location: California, USA
Great job. Should be a blast to drive.

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- 1964 Lotus 23B


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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 9:57 am 
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Sounds nice and lumpy..........I like it :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2020 10:18 pm 
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jpodge wrote:
It lives!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVq13I6 ... ture=share

The throttle position sensor idea works - it gives a sweep from 0-100 but it’s not overly linear. It should be able to be either calibrated through ecu settings or just by adjusting the tune to.

A huge thanks to all that have helped me, in particular Ev that came around to drop off a replacement starter motor after the original died just as it was ready to go. Also a huge thanks to everyone who has helped, messaged me or been involved one way or another. It’s been awesome. still a way to go to get it on the road - exhaust, tune, interior/dash.


100% Joe, re-wired my tps as per your 'genius' electrical engineer friend suggested. I now have 0-100% in relation to throttle bodies closed to 100% open. The ECU now read spot on.
But, the whole tune needs a tinker. Off to the Dyno on Thursday. Even thinking about putting the 370cc injectors back in.

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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2020 7:02 pm 
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dalmeny wrote:
100% Joe, re-wired my tps as per your 'genius' electrical engineer friend suggested. I now have 0-100% in relation to throttle bodies closed to 100% open. The ECU now read spot on.
But, the whole tune needs a tinker. Off to the Dyno on Thursday. Even thinking about putting the 370cc injectors back in.



Good on you Steve - glad it's done the trick. Hopefully yours is nice and linear to make the tuning easy. Let us know if you notice any differences!! I haven't had a chance to tweak mine just yet.

Engine is currently back out of the car - chasing niggling oil leaks now. I'll be honest - in case it wasn't already apparent - this is the first mini engine I've ever built and it turns out that I installed the engine/gearbox oil seal around the wrong way and notice a leak coming from there. A mistake I will never make again.

In pulling the engine apart I noticed some streaks of oil on the flywheel which seemed to be originating from around/beneath the C Clip that holds the primary gear in. It's a new primary gear (floating bush type) and new thrust washer all sitting on a new crankshaft. Confirmed clearance to be 0.004" off the top of my head. Is this normal in bedding in - or is it something that needs attention? I obviously don't want oil leaking out of hear getting any worse!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2020 2:26 pm 
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I haven't had all that much time in the garage lately but the last few weeks has mainly focused around battling oil leak - all of which should be now sorted.

I'm no expert in using the Haltech software or tuning cars for that matter but I basically just need to get the car running, idling and not spilling its guts anywhere so I can confidently take it to a tuner and not ruin their day or my day if something basic were to go wrong. I was having an issue getting the car to idle properly and in some instances I was noticing some back firing through the intakes on 3 and 4. Getting the timing light onto cylinder 1 confirmed that it was firing at the right spot and so was cylinder 2. Cylinder 3 seemed a bit hit and miss and cylinder 4 was firing on every stroke. Clearly something was not right here. After checking that the crank signal was clean and having no errors or interference, I suspected that the interference was at the coils. The wires for 3 and 4 were so short that there could've been either tension or interference causing erroneous firing pulses. Lengthening the wires helped and a clean firing pulse is now consistent for every coil.

I'm able to get it running okay after leaning it up a bit and keeping the ignition locked at TDC - without the ignition lock, it's not too happy and stalls relatively quickly and misses occasionally. Something is not quite right with the ignition correction tables but I'll leave that for the tuner to sort out.

Here it is as of this morning - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODCNYcR4uIo

I'm now struggling to turn the engine off - once the key is to OFF and pulled out of the ignition switch, the engine continues to run. Yet to do any real investigation or troubleshooting on this one but I'm currently scratching my head as switch and constant power to the ECU is confirmed correct. Maybe an issue with the alternator wiring.....

Next steps are to sort out that weird issue and then get an exhaust made up

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