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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:18 pm 
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848cc
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:47 pm
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Location: Hobart Tasmania
Dave - this is absolutely epic!! Please add as much detail as you can - I for one will read it hanging on every word.

And - please put this into production - can I send you a deposit now??


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:36 am 
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Fantastic. Reading the decision making around the design and how you are going about solving issues is ticking all the boxes for me. I never really looked at xflow heads as they were so out of reach, but in addition to your posts you sent me down a rabbit hole looking at info this week.

These ones in particular make your project even more interesting for its potential.

https://www.starchak.ca/tech/8-port.htm

https://youtu.be/hHjf9zhQIRk

Results aside, what a cool project that very few people would be capable of starting. Just enjoying following process and progress - thank you for sharing.

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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:36 pm 
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Dave P wrote:
While I am only planning to make a couple for myself I wanted to keep the option for making more if people wanted them
Would be designed around fuel injection from the start, no consideration would be made for carbies at all! The injector bosses would be included in the head casting, as would knock sensors


However, a two or four carb set-up might not be too hard to adapt...if someone wanted to go that way (just because! :-) )

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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
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Location: Melbourne Victoria
Chapter 3 "Rozzer is having a problem with his differential" Part 1

With a prototype head I was able to dry build the engine in the car and start to develop the complete package of the engine bay:

Attachment:
01 package.jpg

Attachment:
02 package.jpg

Attachment:
03 package.jpg

Attachment:
04 package.jpg


The exhaust was “off the shelf” so not a problem (Though I still need one if anyone happens to have one lying around!!!), however the inlet manifold would be a whole different story. I would also need to design a thermostat housing and package things like the oil cooler, coil pack, and fuel pressure regulator. I also wanted to add expansion and recovery tanks to the cooling system. Finally, I would need to add all the sensors and wiring for the EFI system.
The EFI system I am using is a Megasquirt, primarily because a colleague at work had one he had bought but not used. It is a sequential firing system so I will need a multiple coil pack and a cam position sensor as well as the other sensors injectors and other malarkey.
The thermostat housing was the first thing to be designed, this was always going to be a casting. Initially this was the same height as the mini head and used a mini spacer for the heater take off. However, as I worked through the hose fitting, I realised I needed to rotate the top housing about 20 degrees and the spacer no longer aligned properly. So, I made a tall housing that included the heater outlet. This also allowed me to add bosses for the water temperature sensors and fan switch.


Attachment:
Thermo Housing.jpg

Attachment:
07 Built.JPG

Attachment:
08 Built.JPG

Attachment:
09 Built.JPG


3D printing made this whole process so much easier, the speed of design, iteration, and re-design was awesome! You can also see the oil cooler position in this image, I used an RSP Cooper cooler after much research! But that’s another story.
Finally, I made a radiator mounting bracket and called that job done! Hose is standard Cooper, the thermostat housing is in a slightly different position, but the hose still works, though I do need a new one!


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
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Location: Melbourne Victoria
Chapter 3 "Rozzer is having a problem with his differential" Part 2

Next was the inlet manifold. I can’t tell you how many hours I spent on this. A lot of this was “old school” engineering; making mock-ups from carboard, plastic pipe, even foam pipe insulation, experimenting with all sorts of packages. The images are of early CAD work to help with feasibility, sadly I have no pictures of the actual mock-ups!

Attachment:
Plenums.jpg


The main problem was trying to get the inlet runners as long as possible. Ideally 12 to 18 inches (in old speak). The “up and over” worked well though it drove the injectors into the manifold, but it would require a modified bonnet so was unacceptable. With a forward plenum chamber the issue was finding space for the throttle body and air filter as the long run pushed the plenum down and then the alternator pushed it towards the right of the car.

This iteration process slowly brought me to a design where the plenum was above the alternator with a central inlet underneath which turned 90 degrees to the right to put the Throttle body above the starter motor. This did make the runners shorter than I hoped but it packaged well under the hood and allowed enough room for the throttle body (off an MGF) and air filter. On an aside I used the K&N filter area calculator, the filter you will see on the images is about 200% of the surface area!

Attachment:
010.JPG


Even with this extra space The HVAC duct was in the way! I was reluctant to remove this completely, so I made a new one out of glass fibre that gave me the extra couple of inches required

Attachment:
HVAC.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:51 pm 
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848cc
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
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Location: Melbourne Victoria
Chapter 3 "Rozzer is having a problem with his differential" Part 3

Once I had the final package solution, I had to change that into a viable design. I will show you the steps now, but this actually went on concurrently with the next few chapter(s) where I will cover casting and machining the head. (I have no idea how many chapters there will be, I’m making this up as I go along.)

The manifold, as shown above, is a single piece. How could I make this? If it is too hard to make do I split it into an assembly and if so, how many parts and where do I make the split. Finally, how do I make all the separate parts.

Looking at a single part, well I could cast it but that’s one big casting and once made leaves no room for modification etc.. So, no not a casting. What about a fabrication? Well it could made from Aluminium but as I can’t weld or fabricate aluminium (my steel welding ain’t so good either!) that would be expensive but would at least be modifiable. FRP is an option, but would take a lot of work, I have never made anything that large before. So, a single piece seemed to be out of the question.
The most common way to split the system is into a plenum chamber and inlet tracts so this is the direction I chose. I decided on a split line between the two parts, keeping all of the plenum volume in one part. Much CAD and prototyping helped me to get a shape for the plenum chamber: As a general rule the plenum chamber should be about the same volume as the engine displacement for a normally aspirated 4 stroke engine. This is actually quite small and a hard target to achieve!

Initially I was going to make 4 short cast inlets Joined by a laser cut backplate. 4 velocity stacks would smooth the airflow. However, it became apparent that a single casting would be cheaper and easier to make so that was the final direction I took. One of the drivers for the multi part inlet was to aid assembly and plug changes however during the development I realised that the easiest way to get to the plugs was to remove the complete inlet assembly rather than disassembly parts of it! Yes, it’s a bit tricky to do but with all the limitations I had to work around some compromises seemed inevitable. The way I have mitigated this is to use Iridium plugs that last about 100,000 km.! I am thinking I don’t mind removing the manifold every 10 years to change the plugs!

The plenum is made from GRP; I made a 3D print of the inside of the plenum, I then overlaid it woven glass mat before adding 2 steel reinforced flanges and then a final few layers of woven mat. Once finished the 3D print was broken up and removed.

Attachment:
001.jpg

Attachment:
002.jpg


Finally, I was able to find places for the coil pack and fuel pressure regulator. These look a bit snug to the brake master cylinder but have sufficient clearance to ensure that they will not contact due to engine movement

On the dry build images there is a grey bracket that runs across the front of the engine under the plenum. There is a pin on this which locates onto the plenum. The function of this is to support the inlet system that is cantilevered off the head. While the weight is not too great; during driving the vibrations and potential resonations could cause a failure, especially of the GRP. This pin that locates onto a rubber bushed hole will absorb these. You will see this sort of design on a number of production cars. I have also found that it makes assembling the manifold a lot easier, once located onto the pin the manifold stays put while you put the 8 bolts in!

Enough I hear you cry, I will leave the chapter there!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:58 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:19 pm
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Location: Wollongong, NSW
Very interesting! It's great to see the whole design and prototyping stages to the process

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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:08 pm 
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848cc
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Melbourne Victoria
9YaTaH wrote:
Dave P wrote:
While I am only planning to make a couple for myself I wanted to keep the option for making more if people wanted them
Would be designed around fuel injection from the start, no consideration would be made for carbies at all! The injector bosses would be included in the head casting, as would knock sensors


However, a two or four carb set-up might not be too hard to adapt...if someone wanted to go that way (just because! :-) )


You mean something like this:

Attachment:
Weber Assembly.JPG


Or this:

Attachment:
SU Assy.JPG


No not thought about it at all!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:48 pm 
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848cc
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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:43 pm
Posts: 330
Location: Brisbane north
While you were/are thinking, what about itb’s off a 4AGE silver/black top and a map sensor rather than an AFM and single throttle body ?? Wrong spacing ?? Some bike itb’s may be also suitable.

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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 5:45 am 
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Dave P wrote:
9YaTaH wrote:
Dave P wrote:
While I am only planning to make a couple for myself I wanted to keep the option for making more if people wanted them
Would be designed around fuel injection from the start, no consideration would be made for carbies at all! The injector bosses would be included in the head casting, as would knock sensors


However, a two or four carb set-up might not be too hard to adapt...if someone wanted to go that way (just because! :-) )


You mean something like this:

Attachment:
Weber Assembly.JPG


Or this:

Attachment:
SU Assy.JPG


No not thought about it at all!!!!


When I saw that no interest in carbs statement...I thought, yeah right!! I bet a little what-if mock-up was done :P

Direct injection into a set of trumpets might be good for a race engine as well...Luv ya work! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 7:41 am 
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848cc
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Melbourne Victoria
9YaTaH wrote:

When I saw that no interest in carbs statement...I thought, yeah right!! I bet a little what-if mock-up was done :P

Direct injection into a set of trumpets might be good for a race engine as well...Luv ya work! :D


You got me bang to rights on that one guv!

Yes for crazy road or race you could move the injectors up and add a slide throttle, but it ain't fitting under a standard hood!


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:55 am 
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1275cc
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Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:52 pm
Posts: 2571
Location: Brisbane
Dave, I think that it's time to move onto the block. I'll have one in Alloy

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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 7:58 am 
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848cc
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Melbourne Victoria
Just realized that I didn't add any pictures of the complete prototype build so here they are:

Attachment:
Front.jpg

Attachment:
Front 2.jpg

Attachment:
RHS.jpg

Attachment:
LHS.jpg

Attachment:
Pipes.jpg


Yes the hood closes and clears everything. I spent a lot of time "James Herriot" style with my arms up through the grill measuring clearances using by carefully calibrated fingers! I am aiming at 15mm. clearance between Body and engine. (third knuckle middle finger!) A bit tight but I think it will be OK.


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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:05 am 
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998cc
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Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:38 am
Posts: 1139
Location: Tassie
Hi Dave, it's coming up really good. To me it looks like an australian mini would fit this a little easier. The brake master cylinder takes up a fair bit your useable space. Did you think about converting your car?
It also looks like a good candidate for adding a turbo down the track!!!
I'm loving this development, I wish I had your design skills. Thank you for sharing.

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1963 Morris 850 Shadow Blue
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1966 Morris Mini Van
1969 Morris Mini Deluxe Resto
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 Post subject: Re: Aussie 8 Port
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:25 am 
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848cc
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:53 pm
Posts: 54
Location: Melbourne Victoria
TK wrote:
Dave, I think that it's time to move onto the block. I'll have one in Alloy


No, just no! I have thought about scanning the block, but once I start it won't stop!!!

Mind you I do have a few ideas...


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