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 Post subject: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 10:13 am 
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There has been an ongoing discussion over recent days regarding the validity and accuracy of various pieces of BMC documents which has been enlightening for me and hopefully for others on the forum.

The final question asked of "eightfifty" which remains un answered is
"Can I assume that the authenticity and credibility such documents as BMC Technical Bulletins and BMC Service Bulletins, which were prepared by others within the organisation and not by Engineering, must be questioned as such documents did not go through the rigours of drawing office protocol.
Many people, including yourself with in your books, have and will continue to use such documents as reference points for change.


I believe it is necessary to clarify this point as it is important in the overall histroy of the product.

John Sneddon


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 4:39 pm 
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Things way back when were not like now, where there is a law for just about everything.


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:15 pm 
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I noted Rialto’s last post in the thread about remote housings but did not respond because I respected the recommendation of the Moderator to call and end to that discussion. However, since we have a new thread, I comment as follows.

There are numerous examples where the credibility of service documents should be questioned. While they are useful in the absence of anything else, any conclusions drawn need to be carefully examined in the light of experience and information from more credible sources. Here are two examples, one from Mr Sneddon, and one from my own books.

The Australian Mini and Moke, Page 77. Mr Sneddon claims that in September 1966, the floor assembly of a YDO5 Deluxe was changed to now include channels for protection of the fuel, brake and hydrolastic lines. I believe he was misled by information presented in Parts Catalogue PUB1012 which fails to include the YDO5 Deluxe floor HYA3502 (which has channels) and was introduced for production in January 1965. As a consequence, it is my view that incorrect information was provided to the Mini Community because of this omission in the Parts List (and incidently also missing in PUB1056M) and the author’s failure to examine his conclusion which would be contrary to what most people would expect for a Deluxe floor of 1965.

At Harrison’s Smidt’s garage sale the other week, I picked up an early model steering rack for a spare part for my 850. I spent a nice couple of days rebuilding it. These early racks are UK made and are different internally to Australian made racks. In reviewing the sections in steering racks and arms in my Engineering Series books, I’ve found that the Parts Catalogues and Technical Bulletins, not to mention the confused discussion in TP832A Workshop Manual, to be misleading and incorrect in many instances and some of this carried over into my books. I have just finished re-writing these sections in the light of a closer examination of the drawings and observations of actual racks at a local Mini emporium. In one publication, for example, PUB1056M would have us believe that in some cases, the angle of the steering arm was different on the right hand side compared to the left hand side, which would make an interesting pivot point for Ackerman steering geometry. PUB1056M is clearly wrong (Page K-3) but you would only pick this difference up if you looked at the drawings for the parts listed or looked at the actual parts. In the case of the early 850 rack, it is stated in Service Bulletin C39/66 and workshop manual TP832A the UK rack diameter is 13/16” (0.8125”) whereas drawing 21A715 as well as my actual measurement on several racks, show 0.8405” diameter. Both these service documents are wrong.

Although I occasionally misread a drawing or make an editorial error, I have never found a drawing that has a mistake on it. In the short time I have had to examine them, have uncovered many mistakes in those downstream documents which have served researchers previously. Even without the drawings, simple basic errors abound in books and magazines which should have been picked up at an early stage, but as with all self-published works, a typical author doesn’t have the luxury of a paid proof reader, and especially a knowledgeable one.

So to answer Railto’s question, yes, the credibility of such documents should be questioned at every opportunity. As for their authenticity, I am not sure what you mean. I am sure the documents you refer to are authentic service literature, even if they do have mistakes in them. As for what was actually manufactured, this ranges considerably, especially at model changeover time where some vehicles were a mixture of MKI and MKII parts.

An interesting anecdote comes to mind. I remarked to a colleague, who has a very low mileage 850 that he claims is absolutely original in every respect, that the bonnet catch guide plate on top of the grille support panel was pointing the wrong way. The sloping part, according to the drawings, should be towards the front of the vehicle. His pointed to the rear. His response was that, “Oh, those drawings are just bits of paper. My car is as it was when it left the factory!”. I was horrified. He is right to say what he did, but to my mind, his car has a fault. Two different points of view.
Tony Cripps


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 7:32 am 
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Prompted by John's enthusiasm for the service documentation, I've examined his claim about the floor channels in Deluxe bodies more closely and have found some dated factory photos that show that at initial production (first month or two of 1965), the ADO15 floor was used with the UK designed hydrolastic pipes (bent shape) and with the separate pipe protectors and no floor channels. It seems to me, going on the dates of the drawings of the parts involved, that these were changed to the straight pipes and floor channel floor about May 1965. The Parts Books put this change at first production for YDO5 (deluxe) Feb 1965, July 1967 for both Cooper S and Deluxe (yes, all these dates from the same page of PUB1056M and PUB1012 matched with ausmini listings), and John puts it at Sept 1966 based on indicated change to the floor panel shown for Cooper S which was for seat belt bolt fixings on the tunnel. So we have a range of Feb 1965 to Jul 1967 for this. It just goes to show how contradictory these parts books can be. I am happy that the dates on the drawings are accurate, but there is of course a delay between release of drawing and seeing the part in production. In checking with Peter Davis and Ron Moss, Peter is of the opinion that YDO5 Deluxe was supposed to have floor channels from the start, whereas Ron (who worked in the sheet metal division) says that at model change over, some cars were mixtures of both. Perhaps I should have picked a more straight forward example, but the issue shows that Parts Books are not all that reliable. I did learn something from the analysis and I thank John for raising the question which caused me to look into this more closely. Tony Cripps


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 11:42 am 
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At the risk of boring readers with this detail, but also for John's information, I've spent the morning researching these floors and have discovered that a non-channel YDO5 floor, and one with channels, were drawn in late 1964 (see note below), and the non-channel floor, complete with remote gear change cutout, was kept alive and revised from time to time until Feb 1967, alongside the floor with the channels (which appears to end in 1970). So, the situation is more complicated than we realise. As with all unexpected variations, like those engine codes I referred to in a previous post, they are probably special orders of some kind. All the drawing says is "first used on" YDO5 (and sometimes YDO4 and YDO6 as well).

Note, these floors would have been drawn initially by Pressed Steel or, more likley, Fisher and Ludlow in UK for production of the press dies in 1963 or early 64. When we see a Part Number, like ALA4593, or an Australian drawing HYA3501, these drawings usually show the underlying basic floor, but with additions like weld tabs, weld nuts, holes and other smaller modifications. In the Parts Book, you would never see a Part No for the actual original floor pressing, just the modified floor with all the attachments. No wonder the parts people were getting confused with two floors going at the same time for the same car. ADO 15 kept going until early 1966 until it became YDO4 so there's more complication. Regards Tony Cripps


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 1:11 pm 
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The later recessed floorpans with 2 skid plates started in August 1967

Confirmed early
YKG2S2 2836, 2905,
YMA2S2 27581, 28041

Confirmed late
YKG2S2 2996, 3161
YMA2S2 29562, 29580


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 2:25 pm 
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Excellent observations by gtogreen. These numbers are in agreement with the change in hydrolastic pipes for YDO5 Deluxe and YDO6 Cooper S as stated in PUB1056M, but that same publication also states that the new pipes began at 501 for YDO5 (page K-9) which would make it Feb 65. The Parts Book is contradictory. Drawings show both floors being regularly modified from early 1965 onwards with the last mod to the old floor style being Feb 1967, and the last mod to the new floor being Feb 1970. And, we have John's finding of Sept 1966. A right mess indeed, and all three positions have their fors and against. The exercise shows that what we observe (and we don't observe everything that was made), can be different to what was drawn (and sometimes things are drawn that are not made), and also different to what might be inferred from the Parts Lists (due to deficiencies in these lists). I doubt if we can do better than just all disagree! regards Tony


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 6:22 pm 
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eightfifty wrote:
I doubt if we can do better than just all disagree!


... and disagreeing is part of what makes us human, if one person never disagreed with another then we'd probably still be living in caves and bark huts - but when you disagree, do it with your eyes, ears and mind open, not just your mouth

Sir Alec disagreed with a lot of things, so did something different, and look where we are today

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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 6:34 pm 
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simon k wrote:
eightfifty wrote:
I doubt if we can do better than just all disagree!

... and disagreeing is part of what makes us human, if one person never disagreed with another then we'd probably still be living in caves and bark huts - but when you disagree, do it with your eyes, ears and mind open, not just your mouth

Sir Alec disagreed with a lot of things, so did something different, and look where we are today

Perfect. The more discussion and debate on things of interest to the majority the better. :)

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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 8:06 pm 
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Where does my deluxe fit in has the later wiper position and early hydro floor car has been bar metaled and no shonky cut and shut alway registered as a 68 and electrical components stamped 68
gtogreen1969 wrote:
The later recessed floorpans with 2 skid plates started in August 1967

Confirmed early
YKG2S2 2836, 2905,
YMA2S2 27581, 28041

Confirmed late
YKG2S2 2996, 3161
YMA2S2 29562, 29580


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 9:29 pm 
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Goldbrocade_62 wrote:
Where does my deluxe fit in has the later wiper position and early hydro floor car has been bar metaled and no shonky cut and shut alway registered as a 68 and electrical components stamped 68


I can confirm via photos or talking with owners the following cars have a later floorpan.
YMA2S2 29562, 29580, 30004, 31059, 31319, 33772, 34288.

Looking at my files all the cars up to YMA2S2 32773 have early wipers and all the cars after YMA2S2 32845 have later wipers. All I can say it that looking at hundreds of deluxes the wipers appear to have changed around YMA2S2 32800 in March/April 1968.

I can't get the wiper change any closer because PUB1012 says the new wiper motor started at YMA2S2 23861 and the Tech Bulletin C57/68 says it commenced at car 3280.
Attachment:
Deluxe Wiper change.jpg



I am not sure why they would go back to fitting an early floorpan after fitting thousands of later floorpans.


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2022 10:58 pm 
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To keep the assembly line running it may have been possible that they fitted parts from other or earlier models. An example my father owned a 66 minivan from new which had a Cooper S front pressing for the oil cooler and a bracket on the angle. I have also seen another Van with that front. I also know of a December 1970 Mark 2 Cooper S fitted from factory with beehive heater. Who knows what may have occurred to keep the assembly line going ?


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 7:03 am 
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gtogreen1969 wrote:
I can't get the wiper change any closer because PUB1012 says the new wiper motor started at YMA2S2 23861 and the Tech Bulletin C57/68 says it commenced at car 3280.
Attachment:
Deluxe Wiper change.jpg



I am not sure why they would go back to fitting an early floorpan after fitting thousands of later floorpans.


That Tech Bulletin has gotta be a typo, 3280 is way back in '65.. Friday afternoon and the boss was giving the tech a hard time to get the bulletins over to the typing pool, so he just scribbled something down from his notes and out it went

I know of 2 cars (massive sample size I know) from march 67with 850 style floors. I wouldn't be surprised of there was simply a shortage of the hydro floors so they chucked the other type in instead of stopping production. Might not happen today but back then may have been a very different story.

Changeover to behave heaters seems to have happened in December '70.. I've seen a few

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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 7:36 am 
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Drawings show there are three types of floor listed for this period. Two for YDO5 Deluxe, and one for ADO15/YDO4 Morris 850 and Morris Mini Minor. The ADo15 floor has a hole for the starter button, and no channels. This is floor panel HYA3465. Then there is HYA3501 which has a remote gear lever opening, and no starter button hole, and no floor channels. And finally, HYA3502 which has opening for remote, no starter button hole, and floor channels for pipes. All these were drawn in late 64 or early 65 and contain similar revisions (additions of weld tabs, holes, etc) up until about Feb 67 for non channel floors and Feb 1970 for the other one. Between 67 and 70 there was only one minor revision.

Rather than show boring floors, I've selected a picture showing a layout with floor channels which was drawn October 1964 where you can see the floor channels. The non-channel floors are not Australian pressings. These would have come from UK. Australian only pressed the floor HYS3502 with the channels. Now, what was actually fitted is another story. I don't think one can say there was a definite change from one to the other since it seems we do have cases where the non-channel floor was produced alongside the one with channels. The drawings were certainly progressing together through 1965-1970.

So, to answer the OP's question, the service documentation can provide a very misleading view of the situation if not examined closely in the light of observation and primary documents such as the drawings. I've written to the draughtsman who was involved in Deluxe and asked him if he remembers the situation (at least from the drawing office point of view) and await his reply.

Regards
Tony


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 Post subject: Re: BMC Documentation
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2022 1:42 pm 
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What floor did poverty pack models (Mini Minor and Mini 1100) have throughout their life? Since these models utilised the centre gear change (magic wand) the floor panel would obviously need a hole in this spot.

Or to ask the question another way, did any Australian pressed floor panels have the centre gear change hole?

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