I'm always trying to convert everyone's values to minutes so I understand what they are running.

There are multiple standards of how toe by distance is measured. There's a certain diameter specified in the mini manual but some machines calculate it based on something like a 24" diameter. Degrees/minutes can only be one way. With string mm is obviously the easiest and probably isn't accurate enough for the different diameter standards to matter.


I didn't mean to actually ignore the toe reading (just the tiny thrust angle) but yes the slight toe in is hardly worth worrying about for now compared to the rear.

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1986 Mayfair (998 auto), 1974 S, 1974 Van, 1972 PMG Van

Too many minis

yep - I agree, measuring in mm is a bit bullsh*t, but it's what the wheel aligners give on their printouts, so I have that in my model to compare with the sheets, along with degrees (but no minutes and seconds)

The 7mm I quoted there is at the wheel rim - 265mm / 2 = 132.5mm from the centre of the wheel, at 24" it would be very substantial!

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Just a as check to my string line measurements, I was talking to a bloke yesterday who suggested that I take a measurement on the centre to centre of the tyres as a quick check to see if there is significant toe. Fortunately, the tyres have a clear groove in the centre and measuring was relatively easy. I've also got hold of a digital angle meter so I can check camber after I get the car dead level. Going by eye, which is not as reliable as it used to be mind you, it looks like the passenger rear has negative camber.

When I did the string line, I measured at the stub axle height and at the front and back of the rim - that is at the 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock positions. With the tyre check, I couldn't measure at 3 and 9 due to floor pan and exhaust so measurements where taken at roughly the 4 o'clock and 8 o'clock positions.

The tyre check showed I have approx 1/4 inch or 6mm toe out - distance at front of rear tyres (4 o'clock) was approx 1/4" longer than at the rear (8 o'clock).

Given the tyre measure check was not at the 3 and 9 positions, my reckoning is that the measure at 3 and 9 would be greater than at 4 and 8 and to me, this check confirms that I do have significant toe out.

Before I get carried away with trying to fix this, I thought I'd post how I went about the string line measures to make sure I'm doing it right.

Thanks Rocky

This is how I went about setting up the string lines. I'll put the info in a number of posts as there's pics to go with the words and a bit of info at a time might be easier to follow. I'll include everything I did just in case it helps others.

First up, you need a relatively level floor to work on. I'd reckon most concrete shed floors would be ok unless it's obviously uneven. A fairly flat surface makes it easier to set up the strings so they are at the same height at the centre of the wheels (stub axle height)

1/. I checked all tyre pressures. I run the same front and rear. Take off hubcaps if you have them so you can measure the stub axle height.

2/. Measure the front track (outside edge of front tyres across width of the car) as well as stub axle height. Track doesn't need to be exact, just a rough measure so you know how long the bits of wood for the front and rear bars need to be. For Minnie, the track is about 1400mm and the stub axle height is 225mm at the front (floor to centre of stub axle) and 228mm at the rear (floor to centre of bearing cap).

3/. You'll need 2 lengths of timber (or steel) for the front and rear bars long enough to allow clearance for the string to the tyres and body and if using braces to hold the bars in place like I did, then extra to allow these to be clamped on. The 2 pieces for the bars need to be straight and not warped or bent. The braces don't need to be all that flash as they are only there to hold the bars in place. The track is 1400mm, I allowed 150mm clearance for the string each side (300 in total) and then another 200mm each side (400 in total) for the braces so that makes 1400+300+400 = 2100mm. I prefer to have heaps of room when measuring rather than being cramped up but the string clearance and brace distances could be reduced if needed.

4/. Mark the centre of each bar. This isn't a critical step however as some have suggested having the car centred within the string lines, I thought well why not, it's easy to do.

5/. Using my allowance of 150mm clearance each side for the string, my overall string measurement for the bars is 1400+300=1700mm. 1700 divided by 2 = 850 so you need to measure 850mm from the centre mark each side. This is where the screws will go to hold string in place. It's very important that both bars have exactly the same measurements for where the screws go otherwise the strings will not be parallel.

6/. Screw in a screw at each mark making sure they are straight. I used a pilot hole to make sure.

Following on my string setup

7/. I decided that I'd put 1 length of string right around the car instead of using a separate piece each side so I then put another screw in the rear bar anywhere between the 2 screws and this screw would be used to tie the ends of the string to.

8/. Mark the rough centre of the car on the floor. Not a critical step but for centering the car within the string lines, is a handy starting point as you already have the centre of each bar marked.

9/. Next step is to setup the front and rear bars with the top of the bars at the same height of the centre of stub axles - for me 225mm. I used some jack stands and blocks of wood and packers. I put them about 200mm clear of the bumpers.

Following on....

10/. As my bars would obviously not stay in place when the string was put on, I used side braces clamped to each end of the bars to keep things in place. The braces don't need to anything flash and I joined a few bits together. Overall length needs to be around 3500mm, depending of course how far apart the front and rear bars are. I've seen pics of the bars hard up against the body to keep them in place but for me, I preferred to keep them clear of the body.

11/. When putting the braces in place, make sure they won't get in the way when taking measurements later on. I used a 300mm metal ruler for taking measurements as I could get a more accurate measure than by using a tape measure. I've seen pics using vernier calipers and these would be even more accurate but the display on mine isn't working. If using verniers, the strings would also need to closer to the rims than 150mm.

Final steps.

12/. Once the braces are clamped on, run the string line around the car, making sure the string is nice and tight.

13/. If you want to centre the car within the string lines, for the front measure from the end of the stub axle to the string on each side and adjust as required. For the rear, measure from the bearing cap and adjust as required. Check the front and rear measurements a few times to make sure one end hasn't moved while adjusting the other end.

14/. Take all the measurements needed for the model than Simon provided the link to. I used the rim to measure from, not the tyre, as I thought the rims would be more consistent than the tyres. I used the outside tyre bead lip as it's a flat surface to put the ruler on. I put the ruler under the string. If the string is nice and tight, there shouldn't be any movement while your measuring. Make sure that the ruler is not contacting the string and distorting the measure.

I hope this info helps and more importantly, is correct. If anyone wants to correct things, please feel free as not only do I want to make sure I did things right, it's also important that incorrect instructions are not passed on.

This forum has been invaluable for helping me restore Minnie and I appreciate everyone's help.

Cheers Rocky

so much more detailed than the way I do it!! I just have the 4 axle stands, one piece of string all the way around the car, pulled tight-ish but still drooping, more-or-less aligned with the hub centres... the worst part is not bumping the strings when adjusting things. I do set mine up much closer to the tyres than you've done though, and measure in tenths of a mm

The way toe was done DIY back in the day was with a long bar made of two pieces, each end had a part that went up to the centreline of the tyre, with prongs that poked into the sidewall. The two parts of the bar had a spring between them and graduated marks for measurement. You'd set it up at the front (or rear) of the tyre, read the measurement, then roll the car forward (or backward) to get the difference

Quick and dirty CAD model:



I have CAD open - here's what the model looks like - ugly, but it works for me (though you can see why an app would be better..)

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rocky&bullwinkle Excellent, very easy to understand and just what I was after.

I don't see anything wrong with how you measured it. I also like how you verified it with a second method.

Before going too far you should check the suspension height. I use the hydro heights for dry minis too.



Aligners like that can still be purchased. SPC 99374 or WA374. That's the narrow model.

They are the quickest aligner to setup and have no need for runout compensation. I recently purchased an old Australian made one as a second aligner. I expected it to not work on a mini but it did just. The chains were too long but counting the links works. There are a couple of other issues with using mine on a mini but I made it work.

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1986 Mayfair (998 auto), 1974 S, 1974 Van, 1972 PMG Van

Too many minis

Ok I have a play with things and changed 2 items
1/. Took the 3mm shim out of the driver side - now no shim at all
2/. Put the modified bracket I made up a few years ago on the passenger side. I modified a standard bracket by slotting the hole forward and then welding a washer on it with the hole in the new position.

After setting up the strings again, I get the following results:

Passenger front toe out 0.25
Driver front toe in 0.25
Passenger rear toe out 0.04
Driver rear toe in 0.04

Total toe front 0.00
Total toe rear 0.00
Thrust angle 0.04

Pic of results

I'll go and check the ride height now and make sure each side is the same. I adjusted that a while ago but will check again.

As for the alignment - what do you blokes reckon now? Bear in mind I'm just measuring with a ruler and string and nothing fancy. I could well be 0.5mm out on any one of the measurements

Thanks Rocky

Good job!

You want to introduce a little bit of toe out at the front, the exact amount doesn't matter and is personal preference, I have something like 4mm - roughly 0.5 degrees, or 30 seconds, or 5 smidges, or something

Going by the front toe you have there, I assume you have the steering wheel straight, but when you're driving, you need to turn it a little bit to the right to go straight?

You do that to compensate for the front wheels both pointing left when the steering wheel is straight.

What you want to do is introduce a little bit of toe out to the right front wheel, so screw the steering arm in to the tie rod end a little bit, half a turn should do it

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Thanks for the info Simon. I misunderstood one of your previous replies and screwed both tie rod ends in by half a turn while I had the wheels off adjusting the hi-los. No drama as I'll back the passenger side off 1/2 turn tomorrow.

The car has dropped about 20mm on the front and a bit less on the back since I last adjusted the height. As with most things, you don't seem to notice the drop in height as it happens gradually. It seems the newer rubber cones just keep "collapsing" or wearing in.

I've got it pretty right so far and will fine tune in the morning. If you reckon the back toe figure is ok as is, I'll tighten everything up and take it for a good drive and see how it goes. After that, I'll set up the strings again and see what I find. Hopefully all will be ok.

Cheers Rocky

I think your current difference in the rear is so close that it's probably a measurement error. Ideally you want at least some toe in but this will still be so much better than what you had. You obviously have a bent subframe or arm/s. Measuring the camber will give some idea if the arm is bent.

Ideally you would now adjust the front so that both have equal toe out with the rack in it's central position.

The ride height will keep lowering over time. If you record what you set it to then you can keep adjusting it back to that height and the alignment will be the same.

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1986 Mayfair (998 auto), 1974 S, 1974 Van, 1972 PMG Van

Too many minis

No, you didn't misunderstand, I did say that - it was a little bit of a throwaway comment.. sorry about that

Do what you said, go for a drive, see how it feels, adjust, adjust - its all personal preference. You'll start to get a feel for what you like and what you don't, you can do the same kind of things with your daily, and you can listen to the gurus and understand why the things they are saying are right, and why they are wrong

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