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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:55 am 
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Posts: 39763
Location: near Baulkham Hills, NSW
Yep they are a little bigger, but if much higher they would hit LH side of bonnet in a roundnose.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Radiators
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:05 am 
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998cc
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Posts: 911
Location: Bunbury WA
feralsprint wrote:
doc.martin wrote:
Hi DrMini

Yep you would be right if you could buy a radiator made completely of copper, but they are copper/brass radiators.

Silver is actually the best thermal conductor with a rating of 429 W/mK (watt per meter kelvin)
Copper is 2nd @ 401 W/mK
3rd is Aluminum @ 373 W/mK

Brass @ Bronze come in way down the list @ 110 and 52 W/mK respectively.

So, 100% Copper IS more efficient than Aluminum, but when you factor in the Copper/Brass mix of a 'traditional' radiator the Aluminum radiators win the efficiency contest.

Some quote that an aluminum radiator when compared to a traditional copper/brass radiator can be up to 25% more efficient. - Obviously there are a lot of factors to consider though..

There are new copper alloys and joining processes being developed for radiators which sound promising - but the jury is still out which will come out on top.

The other advantage with Alu. is that the tubes can be optimised to increase the surface area in contact with the coolant... and they are about half the weight!

I am NOT saying that a copper/brass radiator is no good, I just decided on an Aluminum one for the above reasons, and have been more than happy with the results.

Hope this answers your questions Rehab1964

Cheers

Doc.Martin



Sorry to rain on your parade but they have not made rads out of brass since the T model ford and your own figures show that copper is no 2 and that is what they were made of before the move to placci and alloy for weight saving and cost sutting

Jon


Dont know where you got your information from but ....................before the move to Aluminium and Plastic , most radiator tanks were made of Brass , the tubes and top and bottom plates also of Brass and the fins made of Copper , sidebands and mounting straps were made of Steel . Radiators for some heavy machinery and fixed plant have replaceable tubes made of Copper , with cast brass tanks...eg Bulldozers , trucks etc . Very old radiators often had Copper tanks ...

_________________
1965 Morris 850
1966 Morris Mini Minor
1967 Morris Cooper 'S'
1977 Leyland LS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:00 pm 
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Bimmer Twinky
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Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:36 pm
Posts: 8606
Location: Brisbane
As its basically allready been noted, i believe the problem is that (it seems) there is more than just a radiator issue here

The std Morris 1100 radiator (larger by far in both width & height) should cool "ANY" A series engine

we ran 1100 rads in our race minis for years & years & absolutely no problem cooling, & mind you, our race engines were not just little rally donks

I`ve just gone to Ally ones these days because they`re very good value for money costing only a "TAD" more than std issue rads,,, they`re easilly avaliable,,, they`re "WAY WAY" lighter ,,, & they cool soooooo much better than the stock Aussie core ones do.

Any issues with blocking up & having to have them cleaned out is easilly avoided simply by fitting a sock into the top hose & clean it out occasionally. If your engine is nice & clean internally, you run corrosion inhibitor in the system (changed regularly before it goes off) & fit the grit catch sock into the top hose & Bob will be your Aunty

thems simply the facts ladies & gentlemen

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.


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 Post subject: Re: Radiators
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:56 pm 
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1275cc
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 3477
Location: Queanbeyan
AJ wrote:
feralsprint wrote:
doc.martin wrote:
Hi DrMini

Yep you would be right if you could buy a radiator made completely of copper, but they are copper/brass radiators.

Silver is actually the best thermal conductor with a rating of 429 W/mK (watt per meter kelvin)
Copper is 2nd @ 401 W/mK
3rd is Aluminum @ 373 W/mK

Brass @ Bronze come in way down the list @ 110 and 52 W/mK respectively.

So, 100% Copper IS more efficient than Aluminum, but when you factor in the Copper/Brass mix of a 'traditional' radiator the Aluminum radiators win the efficiency contest.

Some quote that an aluminum radiator when compared to a traditional copper/brass radiator can be up to 25% more efficient. - Obviously there are a lot of factors to consider though..

There are new copper alloys and joining processes being developed for radiators which sound promising - but the jury is still out which will come out on top.

The other advantage with Alu. is that the tubes can be optimised to increase the surface area in contact with the coolant... and they are about half the weight!

I am NOT saying that a copper/brass radiator is no good, I just decided on an Aluminum one for the above reasons, and have been more than happy with the results.

Hope this answers your questions Rehab1964

Cheers

Doc.Martin



Sorry to rain on your parade but they have not made rads out of brass since the T model ford and your own figures show that copper is no 2 and that is what they were made of before the move to placci and alloy for weight saving and cost sutting

Jon


Dont know where you got your information from but ....................before the move to Aluminium and Plastic , most radiator tanks were made of Brass , the tubes and top and bottom plates also of Brass and the fins made of Copper , sidebands and mounting straps were made of Steel . Radiators for some heavy machinery and fixed plant have replaceable tubes made of Copper , with cast brass tanks...eg Bulldozers , trucks etc . Very old radiators often had Copper tanks ...




From NATRA my supplier :D I have owned a couple of Rad shops

Jon

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Roundies and Clubbies(except vans) are both ugly that is why I have Midas and a van
1293 Mini Midas Bronze,1275 Clubman van
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 Post subject: Radiators
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:52 pm 
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848cc
848cc

Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:46 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Gold Coast
Jon

I never said they make radiators out of Brass.. Infact they are Copper/Brass as AJ has stated as did I.

The question as raised by Rehab 1964 was,
"What's the current thought on best available radiators?"

Rehab 1964, to answer your question;
1. Copper/Brass 2/4 core units
2. Aluminum 1/2 core will take care of your requirements.
3. Fit a heater core to supplement your existing unit.

- If there are other issues causing overheating you will need to sort these. These could include;
1. Sludge/blockage in engine waterways
2. Incorrect Ignition Timing
3. Correct sparkplugs
4. Radiator cap with correct pressure rating (and not loosing pressure)
5. Ensure radiator hoses are not restricted. (Internal diameter).
6. and so on..


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 Post subject: Re: Radiators
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:34 pm 
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1275cc
1275cc
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Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:02 pm
Posts: 3477
Location: Queanbeyan
doc.martin wrote:
Jon

I never said they make radiators out of Brass.. Infact they are Copper/Brass as AJ has stated as did I.

The question as raised by Rehab 1964 was,
"What's the current thought on best available radiators?"

Rehab 1964, to answer your question;
1. Copper/Brass 2/4 core units
2. Aluminum 1/2 core will take care of your requirements.
3. Fit a heater core to supplement your existing unit.

- If there are other issues causing overheating you will need to sort these. These could include;
1. Sludge/blockage in engine waterways
2. Incorrect Ignition Timing
3. Correct sparkplugs
4. Radiator cap with correct pressure rating (and not loosing pressure)
5. Ensure radiator hoses are not restricted. (Internal diameter).
6. and so on..


Doc

I said they have not made radiators from brass since the model T, the tanks are mostly steel or copper and have been for many years, the frame are steel , , the core tubes are copper and that is where the heat transfer takes place mostly, Alloy rads use tubes much larger than copper cores to equal the transfer of heat of a trad radiator, nothing wrong with that, it works and ends up lighter but they are more expensive to buy and are dearer to service when something does go wrong ,if they can be serviced, a lot of the time its cheaper to get a new one. I am glad you are happy with yours and for a race car they are great but for a street car the tradional replacement of a core or a complete new rad is a much better option

As for all the rest I could not agree more, and as a Automotive Engineer I could not agree more that to many problems are blamed on the radiator when they are caused by many other problems

Jon

_________________
Roundies and Clubbies(except vans) are both ugly that is why I have Midas and a van
1293 Mini Midas Bronze,1275 Clubman van
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Radiators
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:01 pm 
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998cc
998cc
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Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:41 pm
Posts: 911
Location: Bunbury WA
feralsprint wrote:
AJ wrote:
feralsprint wrote:
doc.martin wrote:
Hi DrMini

Jon


Dont know where you got your information from but ....................before the move to Aluminium and Plastic , most radiator tanks were made of Brass , the tubes and top and bottom plates also of Brass and the fins made of Copper , sidebands and mounting straps were made of Steel . Radiators for some heavy machinery and fixed plant have replaceable tubes made of Copper , with cast brass tanks...eg Bulldozers , trucks etc . Very old radiators often had Copper tanks ...




From NATRA my supplier :D I have owned a couple of Rad shops

Jon


Geez mate , you say you have owned a couple of radiator shops and you don't even know the basic radiator composition ???????????????????? UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!
I dealt with Natra for many years , their replacement motor vehicle cores are basically standard , as I stated before , brass tubing and header plates , copper fins , steel sidebands . They also sell replacement brass tanks , brass outlet pipes and filler necks and steel sidebands . Copper tanks were used on very very old cars . Steel tanks I have not seen used , but possible for some limited appplications . Go and have a look at an old mini or holden radiator if you have one and you will be able to confirm the materials ..........

_________________
1965 Morris 850
1966 Morris Mini Minor
1967 Morris Cooper 'S'
1977 Leyland LS


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