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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:44 pm 
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848cc
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I have paid for a 1275 and it was cheaper than a rover front cut


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:54 pm 
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the King of Bling
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get your gear box sorted first its the base (Footings) of everything else. just think if something is not rite you have to pull everything down :roll:.
Build up from their. Its the link between you and how you want to move forward

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:09 pm 
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1098cc
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I think it would be great if we could have an engine building FAQ, outlining commond builds...

eg
low budget 998
med budget 998
high budget 998

low budget 1100
med budget 1100
high budget 1100

low budget 1275
med budget 1275
high budget 1275

for each one specify what internals would best to suit - ie pistons, conrods, camshaft etc etc.. maybe just for the short motor, as a gearbox is a gearbox with major changes only being S/C gears and closer ratios. Heads are a little more obvious as well - head to suit engine, port polish, big valves etc.

would it get too complicated? say for a big budget 1293 vs a big budget 1380, would the same pistons be chosen? Or are there too many permeations and combinations for it to be feasible?

tim.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:19 pm 
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1275cc
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Thats a good idea.
Something like explaining what different things will achieve, and what should be replaced in all builds.

And definitions of big budget as well. Including dollar values, as it can be a bit of a shock to see how things cost.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:51 am 
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998cc
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Location: Perth, Western Australia
blue_deluxe wrote:
And definitions of big budget as well. Including dollar values, as it can be a bit of a shock to see how things cost.


Ain't that the truth, I've decided to stop counting the cost of re-building my Clubman. All the seals, gaskets, fastenings. Little bits and pieces that you don't think of until something breaks when you try to remove it. I haven't even put a spanner on the engine yet and I'm up over $500.00 in parts already. :cry: Lucky for me I think it's all worth it...


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:05 am 
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1275cc
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Location: Sydney - strangely, I am glad of the sight of hills!!
mini is my ride wrote:
disc brakes ...um ..well ...you ..see

I am working on that :lol: might take a bit longer

I am open to advice and ideas as such


Don't put a 1275 in without the disc brakes. Your insurance will not be valid if you do not have the discs. Imagine hitting a clown in a new Mercedes and your insurance won't pay because you put the 1275 in without the factory fitted brakes that go with that engine. You could be up for $100k just because you thought you would get some disc brakes later on. $1500 is a better and safer option.

No point in rebuilding an engine and not doing the gearbox in a Mini. You have them apart, so do them both.

Are you planning on doing the work yourself and only paying for parts?
Are you competent to assemble an engine?

If so, then you can handle doing a gearbox. They are really not that scary (I honestly thought the gearbox rebuild was easier than a performance engine). If you are doing the work, then you can do a basic rebuild of the engine and gearbox almost within your budget, especially if you are only aming for 75hp (I take it you mean at the engine and not the wheels).

When you get the 1275, disassemble it and inspect for the parts that need to be replaced or reconditioned. Then you will get an idea of the potential cost.

Don't forget to budget for a dyno tune of the complete engine. Chassis dyno is fine. This will ensure that when you transfer the carby and/or dizzy over that you do not destroy your newly rebuilt engine by having bad mixture or timing.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:49 am 
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1275cc
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:57 pm
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Location: Gulgong
On the subject of building engines and the associated costs and budgets, there is actually not a lot of difference in costs between each of the engines.

The machining costs are about the same and the parts costs are about the same. What differs is is the cost based on the quality of the parts. Pistons are a classic example. El cheapos are actually very resonable and do a good job provided your not close to maximum revs most of the time.

Better quality pistons cost a lot more and will let you hold higher revs longer without disintergrating in the process. But.... the cost difference between 998 and 1275 high quality pistons is mere dollars not buckets of dollars.

Some time back I posted the contents of an email from Sydney based sprite expert and engine builder Colin Dodds about what needs to be done when building an "A" series engine of any type. I have lost the original email but perhaps someone who is good at using the search function on here could find it and post it here again. It relevant to this topic.

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:00 am 
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848cc
848cc

Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:18 pm
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I know I have to put disc brakes on that’s probably what I will do first
before building a motor

Well I think 75hp at the wheels would be better
As well I need 7.5inch brakes and rover front cut has
8.5inch :wink: brakes

But it would be great to see example engine builds and costs


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:06 am 
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1275cc
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Coluin Dodds did outline the costs in the post I mentioned. It was a rough guide and its a couple of years old now but still basically relevant.

Have a search for it - it was posted under my username a year or so ago.

Mike


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:51 am 
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848cc
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Location: Canberra
This one maybe?
http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic ... olin+dodds


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 8:59 am 
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1275cc
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Yes thats it
For sake of ease I have reposted the entire thing here.
Mike

Mike_Byron wrote:
Here is a treatise written by A series engine builder Colin Dodds of Spriteparts. It was written for mini club members a couple of years ago.

The only thing that I would add is that you have the bore measured for wear as they mostly wear tapered and simply fitting rings or rings and pistons will give a fairly short life if the bore is tapered. Pistons with rings kits have recently come down quite significantly in price.

Herewith Colin Dodds;
I joined this group to assist where I could, and not to tout for business. There are a number of competent mechanics and engine rebuilders out there who deserve your business. (Of course, I think we fall into that category too.) But equally there are a number of inexperienced people who will, if you ask them, be only too happy to work on your car. You shouldn't be paying for their learning time and for their mistakes.

A few people have asked for indicative costs for the engine rebuild items I listed. OK, prices follow. Please note that on purpose I have looked up no price list for this. Why not? Because this is an indication, not a quote. The prices are from memory, but they will be close enough for you to judge whether you are getting good value for money from your chosen rebuilder.

Please note also that cheap isn't necessarily good. Our basic engine rebuilds average around $2,000. A performance engine can easily be double that. I am currently building a 1030cc short stroke Formula Junior engine, with a budget of $12,000. But if cheap is all you can afford, I can refer you to 2 places where you can get a fully rebuilt engine for $1200. I know this because we have re-rebuilt 4 of their engines over the last 18 months.

You get what you pay for. Just make sure you do get what you have paid for.

$180 remove oil gallery, welsch plugs and cam bearings, and chemically clean bare head and block
$60 new oil pump
$70 new water pump - high volume
$12 new timing chain
$32 new (not reground) cam followers
$60 new oil gallery, welsch plugs and cam bearings
$50 hone bore
$90 to $160 for new rings, depending on brand and size
$50 linish crank
$70 new big and and main bearings
$240 service head (new guides etc)
$50 mill head face (in our experience, approx 50% are no longer flat)
$60 mill block face (ditto, 20% not flat)
$90 dynamic balance crank, front pulley and clutch assembly
$60 to $80 static balance pistons and rods
$80 quality gasket set (eg: Metro Turbo head gasket)

Other MUST DO items will depend on the engine, such as:
$120 re-bore
$300 to $400 for oversize pistons depending on size
$35 to remove and replace 998cc or 1098cc pistons
$100 to remove and replace 1275cc pistons
$160 re-grind crankshaft
$80 new timing gears
$150 regrind camshaft

Optional items for more power and reliability are:
$800 to $1000 for cylinder head mods
$0 for performance cam grind - same price as standard cam grind
$100 extra for high compression pistons
$300 lighten and polish rods
$200 new ARP rod bolts
$200 new ARP head stud kit
$750 roller rockers
$250 performance exhaust system
$600 for fully serviced twin 1.25" SUs with new heat shield on manifold
$900 for new 1.5" SUs with heat shield on manifold
$750 for fully serviced 45 DCOE Weber on good new manifold


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:04 am 
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1275cc
1275cc

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:50 pm
Posts: 2690
Location: Wollongong
Hi,

I recently had my motor rebuilt. It is now a reasonably quick motor, but as mentioned earlier I would prefer reliability because as soon as something goes your up for another rebuild.

My motor is a balanced 1330, 266 cam from GR, lightened flywheel, double row timing chain, etc etc

The cost of getting this built was $3,700. This does not include the gearbox. That was another $500

You need to remember that when building a motor you want it to last. If you are building this as a daily driver, make sure you build it with reliability in mind.

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Minis In The Gong
[email protected]
www.minisinthegong.com.au


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:23 am 
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1275cc
1275cc

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:50 pm
Posts: 2690
Location: Wollongong
Edited with total
Mike_Byron wrote:
Here is a treatise written by A series engine builder Colin Dodds of Spriteparts. It was written for mini club members a couple of years ago.

The only thing that I would add is that you have the bore measured for wear as they mostly wear tapered and simply fitting rings or rings and pistons will give a fairly short life if the bore is tapered. Pistons with rings kits have recently come down quite significantly in price.

Herewith Colin Dodds;
I joined this group to assist where I could, and not to tout for business. There are a number of competent mechanics and engine rebuilders out there who deserve your business. (Of course, I think we fall into that category too.) But equally there are a number of inexperienced people who will, if you ask them, be only too happy to work on your car. You shouldn't be paying for their learning time and for their mistakes.

A few people have asked for indicative costs for the engine rebuild items I listed. OK, prices follow. Please note that on purpose I have looked up no price list for this. Why not? Because this is an indication, not a quote. The prices are from memory, but they will be close enough for you to judge whether you are getting good value for money from your chosen rebuilder.

Please note also that cheap isn't necessarily good. Our basic engine rebuilds average around $2,000. A performance engine can easily be double that. I am currently building a 1030cc short stroke Formula Junior engine, with a budget of $12,000. But if cheap is all you can afford, I can refer you to 2 places where you can get a fully rebuilt engine for $1200. I know this because we have re-rebuilt 4 of their engines over the last 18 months.

You get what you pay for. Just make sure you do get what you have paid for.

$180 remove oil gallery, welsch plugs and cam bearings, and chemically clean bare head and block
$60 new oil pump
$70 new water pump - high volume
$12 new timing chain
$32 new (not reground) cam followers
$60 new oil gallery, welsch plugs and cam bearings
$50 hone bore
$90 to $160 for new rings, depending on brand and size
$50 linish crank
$70 new big and and main bearings
$240 service head (new guides etc)
$50 mill head face (in our experience, approx 50% are no longer flat)
$60 mill block face (ditto, 20% not flat)
$90 dynamic balance crank, front pulley and clutch assembly
$60 to $80 static balance pistons and rods
$80 quality gasket set (eg: Metro Turbo head gasket)

Total =$1254

Other MUST DO items will depend on the engine, such as:
$120 re-bore
$300 to $400 for oversize pistons depending on size
$35 to remove and replace 998cc or 1098cc pistons
$100 to remove and replace 1275cc pistons
$160 re-grind crankshaft
$80 new timing gears
$150 regrind camshaft

Optional items for more power and reliability are:
$800 to $1000 for cylinder head mods
$0 for performance cam grind - same price as standard cam grind
$100 extra for high compression pistons
$300 lighten and polish rods
$200 new ARP rod bolts
$200 new ARP head stud kit
$750 roller rockers
$250 performance exhaust system
$600 for fully serviced twin 1.25" SUs with new heat shield on manifold
$900 for new 1.5" SUs with heat shield on manifold
$750 for fully serviced 45 DCOE Weber on good new manifold
[/quote]

Remember, this is just parts (as a side note, my engine builder recommended leaving aside $1800 for parts). It does not include labour and machining costs.

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Ryan Filippi
Minis In The Gong
[email protected]
www.minisinthegong.com.au


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:36 am 
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998cc
998cc
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Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:44 pm
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Location: Far North Queensland
Some very good advice and guidance here. If you are going to have a go at doing the gearbox yourself, which you can as they are not overly difficult, but please pair up with a mini savy person to check the serviceable condition of your gearbox parts as many of these can be worn, and unknown to the unsuspecting punter.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:38 am 
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1275cc
1275cc
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:57 pm
Posts: 3635
Location: Gulgong
I have found recently that most engineering firms do a sub assembly of the engine after the machine work is done.

It saves their tails as they know that assembly lube is applied for the intitial start up etc etc. It also means that they know the bolts aree all correctly torqued and that none of the bearing caps are the wrong way round.

Certainly there are other assembly tips and tricks that a person like GR would use but the machine shop assemblers do a fairly good job of a basic engine assembly as part of the process -and its included in the basic engineering costs.

Mike


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