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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:27 pm 
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It's disappointing to see this kind of corporate bullying in the name of "protecting the brand".

What they don't realise is that they are in fact doing the brand more harm than good.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:04 am 
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No MINI owners dont support what BMW is doing. I would go as far to say at least 75% of MINI owners, own or have owned mini's. We share the love for both, I cant speak for all MINI owners but the vast majority would think BMW should not interfere with the classic scene.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:21 am 
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sounds like virgin all over again :( but doesn't mini and MINI mean some thing different :?: :cry:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:27 am 
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Nice read this thread ...
a few minor points ...

Mini ( or MINI) was not a brand until 1995 or 1996 until then it was just a model designation.
BMW / Rover as it was at the time created the "MINI" as a separate brand.
Remember this was around MGF launch time ... and they created that mid engined retro mini thing ( obviously on an MGF chassis but it did look HOT) to start the ball rolling for the new MINI. All classic mini's from then on had the new "winged" MINI badge ...

The BINI as we know it today was still only on the drawing board at this time, so thats why the mid engined concept mini has the glass house look of the BINI to gauge public feed back ... and to see what it would look like in the flesh. Concept car ...

This was when all hell broke loose, but is not widely publicised ... they were challenged for a long time, by the owner at that time (who it was I cannot remember ...possibly a small company in sussex that made cat food or something) and it cost them a small fortune to keep the name, and to also keep it out of the papers ... would have looked really silly if they had to RE-name the car ??? .. as I have lost contact with the person "on the inside" I am not sure if they actually ended up fully owning the rights, but if they are now heavy handed, you can see why ... they had to fight to retain the mini name ....so dont upset a Kraut ... they get even big time ..(see and no mention of WW2 ...opps)

The other point ....this BMW owners againt mini owners and mini owners against MINI (BINI) owners ... whats all this about .... ????
I hate BMW's ... always have ... think only tosser's who think themselves own one ... for God's sake .. they are German Taxi's like a falcon or commodore here ... the funny part is the owners of 318's who take the badges off, hoping you think they have an M3 or something ....gawd ...
BUT BUT BUT .... the guys at ROVER UK actually designed the BINI, they robbed the BMW parts bin etc for the rear suspension set up ... but it was a UK design ... OK .. so BMW fixed up all the UK faults, and made it BMW strong !!! thats good as far as I can see ... sooooooo the first generation new MINI is a real mini ....(this 2nd gen car ... hmmm yet to decide on that) ...

BTW ...as for owning a BMW based car ... our BINI was in an accident, and had to be towed and fixed ... I cannot fault the BMW roadside assist, they got us home, towed that car ... sorted out the tow truck drivers (we had 4 fighting over who would tow us) ..got the car to a BMW repair house, and kept us informed all the way how the car was progressing ...
big tick from me on that ...

Sorry for the extra long reply ... go back to what you were doing ... nothing happening here ...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:35 pm 
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Ummm, Mini was a separate brand from the Mini Clubman onwards as opposed to being just a model. (although it didn't last long in Aus)
Notice something about these names?
Morris Mini Deluxe
Morris Mini 1100
Mini Clubman
Leyland Mini S

In the UK the Mini was a separate brand for a long time. There were never Leyland Mini Clubman, There were never Leyland Minis at all! It was only after BMW took over that they stuck Rover badges on them.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:16 pm 
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well, money is all that maters now isnt it? :roll:

speaking of which, i own the rights to my bed. every time i bring someone home from the pub, am i allowed to charge them royalties???

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:53 pm 
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Dylan's Clubby wrote:
well, money is all that maters now isnt it? :roll:

speaking of which, i own the rights to my bed. every time i bring someone home from the pub, am i allowed to charge them royalties???


What do you mean now - its all thats mattered for a bit longer than that

- after you pay for their penicilian shots and ointments


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
In the UK the Mini was a separate brand for a long time. There were never Leyland Mini Clubman, There were never Leyland Minis at all! It was only after BMW took over that they stuck Rover badges on them.


I could swear my mum's and my grandad's minis were badged Leylands (late 70s) but i may be wrong.

My 1986 was a Austin, my 1990 is officially a Rover but it's not badged anywhere as such. My old 1993 Mayfair was badged Rover on the boot though (pre-BMW takeover), albeit with the rover-shaped mini badge on the bonnet.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:24 pm 
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Ford are part owners of BMW worldwide but General Motors Holden Have the rights to BMW in Australia.
Cheers Pete

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Last edited by EST-071 on Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:26 pm 
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deluxe_68 wrote:
Ford own's BMW worldwide but General Motors Holden Have the rights to BMW in Australia.
Cheers Pete


um no


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:27 pm 
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Um Yeh, My family works for Ford and this is what they are told.
Cheers Pete

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A recent study found the average Aussie walks about 900 miles a year
Another study found Aussies drink, on average, 22 gallons of alcohol a year
That means, on average, Australians get about 41 miles per gallon

Kind of makes you proud to be an AUSSIE


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:29 pm 
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deluxe_68 wrote:
Um Yeh, My family works for Ford and this is what they are told.
Cheers Pete
Um... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:33 pm 
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BMW is owned by the Quandt family - they are distributed in Australia by BMW Australia - entirely owned by BMW Ag.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:35 pm 
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I work for Holden and all i know is that we own Saab and Hummer

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:56 pm 
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This thread seems to have attracted a lot of heated debate and a fair amount of misinformation.

Apologies up front for the length of this reply, but I think it is important to get the historic facts correct first.

So, a little bit of history – and this subject could easily make an entire book, so I’ve tried to summarise it as much as I can.

Mini became a brand name in its own right in November 1969, with the launch of the ADO20 Mk3/Clubman range, under the umbrella of the Leyland corporation.

As Graham Robson says in Mini: A Celebration "From this point, all such cars were Minis - not Austins and not Morrises but Minis - so no matter which showroom one patronised, the cars were totally identical. Henceforth there was just one range of badges, grilles and colour schemes and all cars were fitted with the corporate British Leyland roundel on the front wings, immediately behind the front wheel openings."

In 1971 Mini production at Longbridge reached an all-time high of 318,475, so Leyland was doing something right (at least in the early days).

While Mini was by now a separate marque, or brand, it was not a separate company.

Interestingly, in Australia Mini was NEVER a separate brand. It was always a Morris or Leyland. Even the last Minis in 1978 were badged Leyland Mini. The Moke was also a Morris, BMC then Leyland Moke, though they were never badged a Leyland (but that’s another story)

It is also interesting to note that when the Clubman model was introduced there was a fair bit of negative feeling toward "what Leyland had done to the Mini". However, it should be pointed out that it was BMC who designed the original concept of the square-nosed Clubman back in 1967, before BMC became part of Leyland.

Fast forward to 1994 when BMW bought the Rover Group (as Leyland had become after a number of corporate restructurings and ownerships) for 800 million pounds from British Aerospace.

Immediately, BMW told the Rover engineers to start looking at a replacement for the Mini. As we detailed in Issue 1 of The Mini Experience, the Rover engineers, took a two-pronged approach. The first was an evolutionary one, resulting in the Minki - a slighter wider version of the Mini with a K-series engine. The other was a revolutionary one, resulting in the Spiritual and Spiritual Too - pre-empting the current trend of one-box designs by nearly ten years.

However, BMW designers were also working on the problem, and took a more middle-of-the road approach. Graham Robson quotes, in his book New Mini, one Rover engineer who was at the presentation to Rover engineers from their BMW counterparts. "When we saw their models it became clear that they had already settled on a theme, and we were looking at variations on that theme. They were...gratifyingly close to the front engine, front-wheel-drive 'Evolution' ideas we had already done. For us, it seemed, this was one possible way of perpetuating the Mini, but for BMW, clearly this was the only way."

The design that was finally approved was penned by Frank Stephenson.

On 26 May 1996, the entire design was then passed to Rover engineers, who were given the task of making it viable to manufacture. They had to sort out all the problems that arose with the suspension, drive train, body development, etc. According to Robson, work on the new MINI in Germany stopped, and whole responsibility was handed over to Rover’s small and sportscar platform director, Chris Lee, overnight. The packaging of the mechanical components and the interior design were to be the responsibility of Rover, but were handicapped by BMW’s insistence that the driving position be similar to that of the then current 3 Series BMW.

BMW also made it clear that the K-series engine was not an option, and that a totally new engine would need to be developed.

It was around this time that Mini was separated from the Rover Group into its own company under the BMW umbrella.

It would seem that even at this early stage, BMW was laying the groundwork to ensure Mini as a brand could be divorced from the Rover Group without relying on any existing Rover parts or infrastructure.

In early 2000 BMW, apparently not satisfied with the rate of progress (although the MINI was virtually finalised) shifted control of the entire project back to BMW in Germany.

Almost immediately afterwards, BMW announced its decision to sell off the Rover Group, except the MINI, due to the huge losses being incurred. The company was cut up and sold in portions. Land Rover & Jaguar to Ford, and MG & Rover to the Phoenix consortium (that in itself is a long story).

BMW also kept Cowley (now called BMW Plant Oxford) and MG-Rover got Longbridge (resulting in a major upheaval as Rover 75 production was moved to Longbridge, and the MINI production line, already virtually complete but not yet operational, was moved to Cowley). The upshot was that many people lost their jobs, and Birmingham lost the Mini – which the population is still very dark about, as I found out when I was there in a new MINI in September this year.

Now, things are a little more complicated, as Ford got the Land Rover facility at Gaydon, but not the British Motor Heritage Trust, which is an independent non-profit organisation. British Motor Heritage was a subsidiary of Rover, and separate from BMIHT, but in 2001 BMH was sold by BMW as an independent company, which it still is.

MG-Rover was permitted to continue building the Classic Mini (as it had become known), but only until the already decided end of production (we’ve got a feature on the final series of Minis in Issue 13 of TME – out now) in October 2000. Meanwhile, BMH, which was already building replacement Mini body shells (Mk3 to Mk5) when owned by Rover, was allowed to continue building the shells and other parts under license from BMW.

After a number of failed attempts to form manufacturing partnerships (Daewoo, Proton, China Brilliance) MG Rover reached an agreement with Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC), which would see the production of Rover cars in China, as well as Longbridge.

Keith Adams explains on his unofficial Austin-Rover website (www.austin-rover.co.uk): “Between the rather unusual (it smacked of a controlled leak) press announcement of November that MG Rover and SAIC would be entering into 'a £1bn' Joint Venture (called the JVC in lieu of a more permanent title) deal, which would secure car production at Longbridge, but also mean several lines moving to Shanghai. In the months leading up to the planned inking of the JVC deal, MG Rover executives handed over the Intellectual Property Rights of the 25, 75, TF and K-Series engines in two tranches for a sum not much north of £67m - believing that these could be held in Shanghai, where much of the JVC management would be taking place.”

However, in March 2005 the deal collapsed, and MG Rover was left without the rights to the Rover cars or the K-Series engine. That only left them with production of the MGF, but in need of a completely new engine, or a partnership deal for an engine from another manufacturer.

The company was put into receivership, with car production halted, on 7 April 2005.

The remains of the company were bought by Nanjing Automobile (Group) Corporation later in 2005. NAC also bought the engine manufacturing company Powertrain Ltd, and intended restarting production of MG cars at Longbridge in 2007 (which has not yet happened as far as I know) as well as in China. Nanjing also announced its intention to reintroduce the Austin marque, though how they got the Austin name is not clear.

Are you as confused as me with all this?

So, in terms of the Mini brand name, BMW own the rights to the name, BMH build Mini body shells and parts under license, Rover continued to make the Mini under agreement only up until October 2000, and any other parties who want to manufacture parts, or use the Mini name in their business name have to reach an agreement with BMW.

However, when BMW forced many Mini businesses to change their names, by threatening legal action, prior to the release of the new MINI, a small band of UK businesses held out and took BMW to court – the basis of their case being previous use with the full knowledge of, and without objection from, the brand name’s previous owners. It would seem that they had success with this, as a number of UK businesses continue to use the Mini name.

Anybody else who has begun manufacture of products bearing the Mini name, design, or logo, is seen to be trying to capitalise on the name, and is being pursued by BMW in the courts, or at least with the threat of the courts.

I agree that the way they have handled this has been heavy handed and detrimental to the overall good will of the MINI product name, but I also accept that they have the right to protect their intellectual property. Some people, though not all involved I am sure, might simply be ignorant of the IP laws, and think that because Rover is dead that the name of the Mini is essentially public property, but it doesn’t work that way.

BUT, in Australia the ownership is less clear. BMC Australia was a wholly-owned subsidiary of BMC (UK), with Leyland Australia in turn being owned by Leyland in the UK. However, when Leyland was nationalised in the UK, Leyland Australia became Jaguar-Rover-Austin (JRA), which is now Land Rover Australia and owned by Ford. It is not clear, and nobody has yet been able to adequately explain to me, who owns the IP from BMC Australia, if indeed the BMW takeover of Rover Group UK included Australian subsidiaries, and to what extent that included retroactive appropriation of IP.

Basically, BMW owns the world rights to the name MINI, as well as the design of all components, but who owns the IP rights to such things as brochure design, films, photographs, etc, that were commissioned by BMC Australia?

Now that is something to digest.

Cheers,
Watto.


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