Yup, engineer is the train driver. And then there's the en-gi-muh-neer who works with calculus and computers.

It seems there's not a clear answer to this seatbelt question. I do have to note that any serious crash in a mini is probably going to be bad, in spite of seatbelts (sorry, the firefighter side is talking now). But for that 30 mph fender bender, some protection for the little tykes would be nice.

So far, it seems the best answer may be a non-retractable rear belt, with reinforcements behind the bulkhead or under the seat, wherever it ends up getting mounted.

I would still like to see any photos out there of installed rear belts, lap/shoulder/ lap only/ retractable or not.

Thanks again,
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

Sorry for the second post on the topic, but there's a famous Grateful Dead song about this gent, and the lyrics go...
"Drivin' that train, high on cocaine. Casey Jones you better watch your speed. Trouble ahead, trouble behind, and you know that notion just crossed my mind."

Kevin, perhaps you can share your engineering habits with us, that is vices other than minis...

Maybe it would make things easier, who knows?

bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

I just popped out to the shed and took some photos of the 76 shell that I have to show you how Leyland mounted the rear belts. The rear belts are mounted arse about, the buckle is hard against the edge of the seat against the wheel arch.
The sash belts cross over, the right belt mounts to the left on the parcel shelf, the left belt mounts to the right on the parcel shelf.

Ignore the huge speaker holes that were probably cut with an axe...



The two holes behind the speaker are the seat belt and the child restraint holes. At this stage there was no requirement for a child restraint to be fitted with a captive nut. The mount on the left is for the child restraint, next to it with the captive nut is the right hand side sash upper mount.



This is what they mount the lap belt to, your cars may have a blank hole in this spot....



Here is a close up...



Here is how they mount the buckle end of the belt...

not sure if this is any use to you (my head got kinda confused halfway thru this topic) but here are 2 pics from the cruise we went on the other day that happened to catch some of my seatbelt in the frame.
Mine is a 1976 Leyland Mini




i can take more pics of the actual mountings on the weekend if you'd like

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Thanks Morris 1100 and Jess. M1100, you're right--on the '70, I have the holes in the lower center bulkhead, and one hole on each side on the speaker tray. I don't see the one through the rear fender though, but didn't look with a light.

On the '66, I have none of these holes that I can see.

Gives me an idea of what was considered "structural" at least.

Thanks.
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

Rear lap belts were sold as an accessory from at least 65 (BMC accessories brochure from 65) the dealer just drilled the holes and bolted them in place with a plate behind the nut.

Actually just looking at the accessories book from 68/69 and they list a lap belt or a sash belt for the rear up to 68 and a lap sash from 1968...

Some extra photos to show a bit more detail...

The two centre holes from inside the car...




The buckle end on the right hand side....




Just a close up to help you find the hole....




The parcel shelf mount from underneath.....



And a close up (Notice the extra bracing on the left and the double skinning as well as the spot welded plate) .....

Thanks again M1100. That all helps a lot.
tx,
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

That is an absolute disgrace, who ever cut those holes for the speakers in the rear parcel shelf, has just made that car unregisterable, once you hack into the parcel shelf like that and being so close to a seat belt anchor point, its had compromised the side intrusion capabilities of that car and is now downright dangerous.

My 2 cents worth, its happend to me......LOL.......

Surprisingly it has not really affected the structure as they have not cut the double skinning, the extra sheet underneath is much thicker than the outer skin that has been cut. It is set-up like a perimeter frame that runs from the sides and around the back part of the shelf to carry the belt mounts.
It is like Leyland made the structure so that if an idiot butchered it to fit speakers it would still have enough strength to hold up.

I was going to say that the holes are pretty ragged and wondered about the structure thing as well. Kind of like Jason got in there with his saw! M1100, you really don't think the captive nut will have a tendency to pull into the hole area? I'm no engineer, but I sure wouldn't feel warm and fuzzy about being back there and running into something going forward.

The bracing and double skinning is really interesting though--it makes me realize that this is a type of lamination, made much stronger by the layers than the sum of the two individual parts. I have a boat here that's balsa core with fiberglass on either side, and it's the most rigid hull I've ever been in. I wonder if I can duplicate this on the '66 without too much craziness. I also realize from this that the discussion on the 2007 I referenced above misses the boat in terms of using rivets on the plate instead of welds. If the rivets can give way, the captive nut may not tear through, but the panels can give way much much more easily by bending, instead of the lamination (with welds) keeping them more rigid.

Perhaps the kiddies just don't get to ride in the back.

bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

The way it is designed the strength comes from the back, not from the front. The captive nut is spot welded to second skin. The second skin is about twice as thick as the shelf that has been cut. You could cut the whole front of the shelf out without affecting the strength of the belt mount.

But it will get the holes filled before the car is re-used.

Now, your car does not have any of the extra skins or ribs underneath the shelf....

Yeah, I could see that as being the case. My '66 doesn't even have the holes through the rear center bulkhead, so they weren't pre-planning for that even yet. I also notice that on both the '66 and '70, the rear outer corners of the speaker shelf aren't even welded in--the radius of those curves just floats in space, so I'm sure that's different on your '76 also, since that would be the major structural point for the "strength from the rear" idea you stated!

take care,
bmc

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Ben McCafferty
Bainbridge Island, Washington, USA
1970 ex-police mk2 Cooper S

Even though the 66 does not have holes BMC offered belts as an option.

Maybe fit the kids seat belts but don't feed them much.

A wise man once asked me, what would you rather, sitting in a car with illegaly fitted seatbelts that have a 99% chance of working or sitting in a car with nothing ?
I know which one i would rather be in...

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