ausmini :: View topic - Cooper S #4772 ID plate on ebay

I know if I bought a cooper from someone and found out it had a shell swap - however well done, the police would be involved pretty quickly.

If one replaces doors,boot,bonnet,floors,sills,apanels,front&rear valences,inner &outer guards,battery box,drip rails,seam cover strips, boot repairs but bulkhead remains untouched is it still origonal

Case 2: as said before, someone has a rusty crappy Cooper S, fits all the bits to a "new" shell and does it properly so that it cannot be found to be a fake, this I feel should be ok. The person is not out to deceive or make a quick buck, they are simply saving another of our treasured little cars.
.

Steve

I wonder how many original UK works Minis there are, under this definition. Probably none?
Most apparently have been reshelled numerous times.
It doesn't seem to have affected their values. :lol:

I think there is 2 distinct scenarios in all of this.

Case 1: someone has a x model mini, attaches a Cooper S plate to it and hey presto, the magic works wonders and the car is now a Cooper s - NOT or even if they fit a right hand tank and a couple of other bits to make it look the part - NOT

Case 2: as said before, someone has a rusty crappy Cooper S, fits all the bits to a "new" shell and does it properly so that it cannot be found to be a fake, this I feel should be ok. The person is not out to deceive or make a quick buck, they are simply saving another of our treasured little cars.

This of course is not taking into account the legal issues of this type of activity.

This topic has come up before, without an accepted answer and will surely come up again. There is always going to be differences of opinion.

Steve

So if you were out to buy one would you be willing to pay $25 000 for a rebodied cooper s ? Or would you look further and find a proper one?

IM with 1071 rebody=fake

Bubbacluby wrote:

So if you were out to buy one would you be willing to pay $25 000 for a rebodied cooper s ? Or would you look further and find a proper one?

IM with 1071 rebody=fake

I understand what you and 1071 are saying,BUT if it were done "properly" and it couldn't be detected that it had been rebodied thenb surely its value remains the same as any other similar original car.

In case you are not sure what I mean picture this. You are looking for a Cooper S and there are 2 available, you go along to inspect them armed with a great deal of knowledge, experts to help you etc etc. You find no sign of any wrong doing, everything looks correct, which one is the fake :?:

You might say neither, the seller tells you one of them is rebodied but not which one, which do you buy :?:

Like I say, if it is done PROPERLY :!:

You say find a proper one, if it is done properly you could in reality think it is a "proper" one and never know that it has been rebodied.

Again I say though, the legalities of doing this is another matter.

Steve

Author:	Drexxle [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:20 pm ]
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hahahaha morris, sounds like a cooper from hell, but at least its not in heaven.

Author:	AEG163job [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:56 pm ]
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I'm still waiting for the ID plate for this shell to arrive on e-bay BRG/Toga White Mk 1 rad. shroud # M2 06 2455

Author:	1275LS [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:10 pm ]
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Seriously guys, if a stock standard holden dunnydoor is given the vin plate and bits and pieces of a HSV whatevercr@p - it does not make it the HSV. Anyone selling it as such is committing fraud. In all cases, as mentioned previously, the shell is the car. As far as how many panels do you fix before it stops being an original, it comes down to this. If the main frame of the car and the ID plate remains in play, replace all the panels you like. Cut the stamped numbers, id plate and boot board brackets etc out and transfer them to another shell (even from the same year) and it ceases being the original car. I am only a relatively recent arrival here but I would have thought by now that these basic concepts were accepted by all. I know if I bought a cooper from someone and found out it had a shell swap - however well done, the police would be involved pretty quickly.

Author:	Panthersteve [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:29 pm ]
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I think there is 2 distinct scenarios in all of this. Case 1: someone has a x model mini, attaches a Cooper S plate to it and hey presto, the magic works wonders and the car is now a Cooper s - NOT or even if they fit a right hand tank and a couple of other bits to make it look the part - NOT Case 2: as said before, someone has a rusty crappy Cooper S, fits all the bits to a "new" shell and does it properly so that it cannot be found to be a fake, this I feel should be ok. The person is not out to deceive or make a quick buck, they are simply saving another of our treasured little cars. This of course is not taking into account the legal issues of this type of activity. This topic has come up before, without an accepted answer and will surely come up again. There is always going to be differences of opinion. Steve

Author:	Aussie Brian [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:22 pm ]
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1275LS wrote: I know if I bought a cooper from someone and found out it had a shell swap - however well done, the police would be involved pretty quickly. This is easier said than done as believe me I tried. As a recent victim of buying a rebodied Cooper S I feel i can speak with some authority on this subject. The feeling is devistating when you realise you have bought a vehicle that has been misrepresented. The way i see it is to be prepared to accept your judgement be it good or bad. In my case the vehicle will be resold with the plate as that is its now legal identity. It will be advertised as a rebodied Cooper S and I will not try to hide the fact that it is a rebodied. I would expect that the minute i advertise it there will be howls from the gallery about its identity so i am making it known now. So to anyone thinking of buying a plate and building a car around it think of your fellow Ausmini'er as it really hurts.

ausmini https://www.ausmini.com/forums/

Cooper S #4772 ID plate on ebay https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=65525	Page 3 of 8

Author:	Goldbrocade_62 [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:45 pm ]
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If one replaces doors,boot,bonnet,floors,sills,apanels,front&rear valences,inner &outer guards,battery box,drip rails,seam cover strips, boot repairs but bulkhead remains untouched is it still origonal

Author:	MG Rocket [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:53 pm ]
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Goldbrocade_62 wrote: If one replaces doors,boot,bonnet,floors,sills,apanels,front&rear valences,inner &outer guards,battery box,drip rails,seam cover strips, boot repairs but bulkhead remains untouched is it still origonal It's a bit like granddads old axe......it's had five new handles and two new heads.

Author:	Monaco [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:00 pm ]
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Panthersteve wrote: Case 2: as said before, someone has a rusty crappy Cooper S, fits all the bits to a "new" shell and does it properly so that it cannot be found to be a fake, this I feel should be ok. The person is not out to deceive or make a quick buck, they are simply saving another of our treasured little cars. . Steve Yes, the person is out to deceive unless they make it clear the car has been rebodied. As you have stated it is a "fake" and they have tried to make it so it "cannot be found" - that sounds very much like deception to me! If there is nothing wrong with it, then why not state it is rebodied. Instead people try to deceive to make more money for themselves at someone elses expense. If the body is not original, then it is not a Cooper S, rather another body (deluxe, K or 850) with Cooper S parts and where the deluxe, K or 850's body's identity has been replaced with the original cars (which is illegal). If people want to save our treasured cars, then why not just restore the new body into a replica or original 850 etc,,,, why try and pass it off as a genuine Cooper S - to make money!

Author:	drmini in aust [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:07 pm ]
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I wonder how many original UK works Minis there are, under this definition. Probably none? Most apparently have been reshelled numerous times. It doesn't seem to have affected their values.

Author:	Monaco [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:15 pm ]
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drmini in aust wrote: I wonder how many original UK works Minis there are, under this definition. Probably none? Most apparently have been reshelled numerous times. It doesn't seem to have affected their values. The poms usually mention they are a re-shell and not the original shell. It often does not hurt value because the second or third shell has also been rallied and so the value is preserved. If I paid $130,000 for an ex-works car and found out it had been re-shelled post its race career....I would be asking for my money back!

Author:	1071 [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:23 pm ]
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".... fits all the bits to a "new" shell..." But that's the whole point ...it isn't a "new" shell. Its an 850/Deluxe or whatever that has had its identity removed and another (fake) identity installed. What part of fraud don't you understand. Its used to be legal (probably still is) in England to reshell a car - as long as you used a NEW shell supplied by the ORIGINAL manufacturer. All the major bits of the car had a points value. As long as you used enough original bits to total up the required number of points then you still had the same car. Logical, as the shell was considered just to be another component. But this only worked with a new shell - no second hand recreations. A few years ago in Canberra we had the "Coke" car affair (so called because it was red and white). Person A intended to restore their S and decide to practice first. A bunch of spare S bits were attached to a suitable shell and a very nice S replica was created. Nothing wrong with this as no identity changes were involved. Person A then sells to Person B for the price of the bits and maybe some change to cover labour. However, Person B now on sells to Person C. Don't know about ID plates but lots of representations were made as to the validity of the S identity and a suitable amount of money changes hands. This was in the pre internet days (remember them !?) pre Mini magazines etc so people were not as well informed and certainly not backed by the peanut gallery. (I bought my 1071 about this time on the strength of a single magazine article. It took 5 years to confirm it was what I thought it was) Person C is quite happy until a few problems pop up where upon they call in Person A after being told that they are someone who knows a bit about Minis. Person C is devastated when Person A cheerfully remarks how nice it is to see his old 850/Deluxe/whatever again..... Cue police, courts, legal action and lots of bother for Person B. Reshells are fakes - pure and simple. Cheers, Ian

Author:	Bubbacluby [ Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:47 pm ]
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Panthersteve wrote: I think there is 2 distinct scenarios in all of this. Case 1: someone has a x model mini, attaches a Cooper S plate to it and hey presto, the magic works wonders and the car is now a Cooper s - NOT or even if they fit a right hand tank and a couple of other bits to make it look the part - NOT Case 2: as said before, someone has a rusty crappy Cooper S, fits all the bits to a "new" shell and does it properly so that it cannot be found to be a fake, this I feel should be ok. The person is not out to deceive or make a quick buck, they are simply saving another of our treasured little cars. This of course is not taking into account the legal issues of this type of activity. This topic has come up before, without an accepted answer and will surely come up again. There is always going to be differences of opinion. Steve So if you were out to buy one would you be willing to pay $25 000 for a rebodied cooper s ? Or would you look further and find a proper one? IM with 1071 rebody=fake

Author:	Panthersteve [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:48 am ]
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Bubbacluby wrote: So if you were out to buy one would you be willing to pay $25 000 for a rebodied cooper s ? Or would you look further and find a proper one? IM with 1071 rebody=fake I understand what you and 1071 are saying,BUT if it were done "properly" and it couldn't be detected that it had been rebodied thenb surely its value remains the same as any other similar original car. In case you are not sure what I mean picture this. You are looking for a Cooper S and there are 2 available, you go along to inspect them armed with a great deal of knowledge, experts to help you etc etc. You find no sign of any wrong doing, everything looks correct, which one is the fake You might say neither, the seller tells you one of them is rebodied but not which one, which do you buy Like I say, if it is done PROPERLY You say find a proper one, if it is done properly you could in reality think it is a "proper" one and never know that it has been rebodied. Again I say though, the legalities of doing this is another matter. Steve

Author:	MG Rocket [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:04 am ]
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What if.......somebody cut out the body number from a Cooper S and retrieved the fan shroud and carefully grafted them into another shell, made everything else authentic. Would we have an authentic S?

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Author:	low n blown [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:29 am ]
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Panthersteve wrote: Bubbacluby wrote: So if you were out to buy one would you be willing to pay $25 000 for a rebodied cooper s ? Or would you look further and find a proper one? IM with 1071 rebody=fake I understand what you and 1071 are saying,BUT if it were done "properly" and it couldn't be detected that it had been rebodied thenb surely its value remains the same as any other similar original car. In case you are not sure what I mean picture this. You are looking for a Cooper S and there are 2 available, you go along to inspect them armed with a great deal of knowledge, experts to help you etc etc. You find no sign of any wrong doing, everything looks correct, which one is the fake You might say neither, the seller tells you one of them is rebodied but not which one, which do you buy Like I say, if it is done PROPERLY You say find a proper one, if it is done properly you could in reality think it is a "proper" one and never know that it has been rebodied. Again I say though, the legalities of doing this is another matter. Steve Steve, I hear exactly what you are saying. From a scientific point of view there is always a way of telling. To the naked eye even a trained observer they may be fooled, but all it is is a very good fake. Still a fake in my opinion just a very good one. When the numbers are stamped (firstly the stamps were unique so have to specially have new ones made) secondly the old numbers when stamped in change the density of the metal below. Applying acid to the metal will reveal the old numbers below. I think we all know what a fake is. Put simply if it didnt leave the factory as a cooper S it aint a cooper S.