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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:17 pm 
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Mick wrote:
moemoke wrote:
I think helicoils are mainly desidned to work in blind holes and not holes that
go through metal or alloy like a sump. on my moke it's helicoil was becoming tighter and tighter to get the sump plug in or out and I had a good look one day and the helicoil
had wound itself into the sump by 5-10mm and was only gripping the alloy by a couple of turns and some of these where broken, I managed to dig it all out then re threaded the hole and had a friend make up a new sump plug in a slighty bigger diameter, I retapped the sump in the car but was about 0.0005° out of square so has a slight oil leak
(just like the new then :wink: )



Blind holes are actually a little bit more difficult because you need to get the tap all the way mostly to the end of the hole, and get the insert's removable tang out. If you don't get the finishing tap far enough in, the insert will be pushed in to a narrower diameter as you install it into the lower part of the hole, and give you problems when you try to tighten a bolt home..

If your thread insert moves in use, use a few drops of stud lock as you put the helicoil in. Wash the area with acetone or Loctite's own proprietary surface cleaner before doing so.

Much easier with small (5/16th, 3/8th, 1/4) sizes however.


Mick with you 100% of the way.... And I've found they usually give you an intermediate type tap in the kits (have you found that too?) I usually just grind the end off them to square them up and make a plug/finishing tap out of them.... IF, I need to use them in a blind hole :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:20 am 
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please, when I read stuff like;-

drmini in aust wrote:
It's a 5/8 UNC thread and yes, it is a pretty close fit.


Well, depends on your description of 'close' but as I said earlier, these are not precision threads, like say a micrometer. Grab a UNC Blot and wind a nut down on it. Then wobble it. There is a fair amount of movement there, eh?

I'm sure if you Googled it, you'd find out what the clearances are.

The correct re-threading system will give the same clearances as the original threaded hole in the sump.

moemoke wrote:
I think helicoils are mainly desidned to work in blind holes and not holes that
go through metal or alloy like a sump. on my moke it's helicoil was becoming tighter and tighter to get the sump plug in or out and I had a good look one day and the helicoil
had wound itself into the sump by 5-10mm and was only gripping the alloy by a couple of turns and some of these where broken, I managed to dig it all out then re threaded the hole and had a friend make up a new sump plug in a slighty bigger diameter, I retapped the sump in the car but was about 0.0005° out of square so has a slight oil leak
(just like the new then :wink: )

What size helicoil do you guys use? I did look at using another but I think the guy said I'd need to drill the sump out quite a bit bigger or maybe that was the only sizr they had

These re-threading systems are very good, although there might be some rubbish ones out there.

There could be a number of reasons for this to occur, some like;-

Using a Whitworth system instead of UNC,
Not cutting the thread correctly,
Using the wrong tap,
Using the wrong system. There are some that are designed for blind holes, some for through holes and some that are thread locking types, so just don't buy re-threading kit without know what you are buying!

These are the ones I use (and some educational reading);-

http://www.alcoa.com/fastening_systems/ ... cat_id=685

I would have done more than a dozen of these over the years and never had trouble. I do also have a very long T tap handle that makes it easy to get in there and get it reasonably square - square enough that they do seal. Also, guys, try aneiling the copper washer, they do work harden and then they don't seal.

The factory used these systems, when required, on the Gold range of reconditioned gearboxes too (and reading between the lines, I think Matt Read uses them).

Please, don't give a great system a bad name because of misunderstand it or incorrect use. Any tool or system that is not used as intended will give bad results and this is no different.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:58 pm 
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GT mowog wrote:
please, when I read stuff like;-

drmini in aust wrote:
It's a 5/8 UNC thread and yes, it is a pretty close fit.


Well, depends on your description of 'close' but as I said earlier, these are not precision threads, like say a micrometer. Grab a UNC Blot and wind a nut down on it. Then wobble it. There is a fair amount of movement there, eh?

I'm sure if you Googled it, you'd find out what the clearances are.

The correct re-threading system will give the same clearances as the original threaded hole in the sump.


:? You're losing me... and perhaps the above does not reflect what you are trying to say????

Clearance in a thread has nothing to do with it "pulling up square"... if it was a square thread then it might, but we are talking about a UNC thread with a 60 degree inc angle... that means it has angled flanks.... they self align on the flanks,,, not the spot face.... If its not sealing, its due to the hole being out of square, the copper washer, or dirt.....


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:09 pm 
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Phat Kat wrote:
,,, not the spot face....


Ah, but have a look at a sump plug next time you have one out. The threaded part is short (for a reason) and the head is large, so as long as the thread is reasonably square, it will pull up flat.

Oh yeah, and by 'reasonably square', I mean something that most people can do, who have tapped a hole or two, on the car. Not some you need to send to NASA to have done.

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Last edited by GT mowog on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:31 pm 
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I helicoiled my sump plug hole off the car - but the flat area around the hole had a chunk out of it - should of got a new case I know but.... to fix it after I helicoiled I got a big metal washer - some metal to metal epoxy and glued the washer in place -then with some release agent on the thread of the sump plug screwed it and and just tight enough to level the washer to the under face of the plug - the epoxy provided the levelling agent - when hard I had a nice smooth and flat surface for the copper washer to sit on.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:58 pm 
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And the factory torque setting for the sump plug is 25 ft/lbs........

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Wombat wrote:
I helicoiled my sump plug hole off the car - but the flat area around the hole had a chunk out of it - should of got a new case I know but.... to fix it after I helicoiled I got a big metal washer - some metal to metal epoxy and glued the washer in place -then with some release agent on the thread of the sump plug screwed it and and just tight enough to level the washer to the under face of the plug - the epoxy provided the levelling agent - when hard I had a nice smooth and flat surface for the copper washer to sit on.


thats good to know, i may be in touch down the track as the thread on mine is stripped


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:14 pm 
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OK today I started to machine up a few steel repair adaptors, as pioneered by 4myego on his Cooper S. (ta for the drawing Steve).

Outside diameter is 3/4 UNF, inside is 5/8 Whitworth.

Pic of the 1st one... (sorry about the crook flash job)
http://home.exetel.com.au/zoomini/zoomi ... GP2330.JPG

You drill and tap the gearbox to 3/4 UNF, clean the thread out and dry it, put some Loctite 262 on the outside of the adaptor, fit the sump plug and torque it up.

The factory may think 25lb/ft is OK, they were in the business of selling spare gearboxes. 15lb/ft would be plenty for a sump plug I reckon.

[edit] If anybody needs one, PM me. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:12 am 
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Good repair job Kev. In the past when the case has been badly repaired and sometimes split, I have welded up the sump plug hole and then drilled a new plug hole, faced the outside so it is square and then cut a new 5/8 thread. Only when the case is empty and not a "in car" job.

That repair adaptor will be cheaper and easier. Good work.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:28 pm 
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Phat Kat wrote:
...... I'm rather taken with 4myego's idea. Its very similar to a Time-Sert.. infact I wonder if you can get Time-Serts that size?



http://www.timesert.com/html/inchsert.html


Hell of a lot quicker, (and cheaper) than making them. I guess no one saw my hint... no skin off my nose :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:40 pm 
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Phat Kat wrote:
Phat Kat wrote:
...... I'm rather taken with 4myego's idea. Its very similar to a Time-Sert.. infact I wonder if you can get Time-Serts that size?



http://www.timesert.com/html/inchsert.html


Hell of a lot quicker, (and cheaper) than making them. I guess no one saw my hint... no skin off my nose :)


Kit 5081.....And will that be in steel or stainless?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:49 pm 
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GT mowog wrote:
Phat Kat wrote:
Phat Kat wrote:
...... I'm rather taken with 4myego's idea. Its very similar to a Time-Sert.. infact I wonder if you can get Time-Serts that size?



http://www.timesert.com/html/inchsert.html


Hell of a lot quicker, (and cheaper) than making them. I guess no one saw my hint... no skin off my nose :)


Kit 5081.....And will that be in steel or stainless?


If you like why not, stainless sounds great ... just don't put a stainless bolt in it :P

<edt> If you care to have a look thru their catalogs, I'm pretty sure they even do taperd ones too.... its not going to matter if you can tap square then! It'll seal anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:59 pm 
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GT mowog wrote:
Phat Kat wrote:
Phat Kat wrote:
...... I'm rather taken with 4myego's idea. Its very similar to a Time-Sert.. infact I wonder if you can get Time-Serts that size?



http://www.timesert.com/html/inchsert.html


Hell of a lot quicker, (and cheaper) than making them. I guess no one saw my hint... no skin off my nose :)


Kit 5081.....And will that be in steel or stainless?

Kit # is 0581- you dyslexic must be... :lol: :wink:
MS would be fine, it's hardly going to rust with all the oil, is it...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:17 pm 
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haha yeah it would be fine... but its interesting to see what is available... and I'm sure someone would find a use for the stainless one in something else.

hehehe Lixdexia :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:54 pm 
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sydlexics are teople poo


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