I also agree with you HRS

Historic racing should represent the racing as it was in the 60's with certain rules and sensible restrictions

I have personally never recently seen a historic racing mini turn up in a colour scheme which looks anything but suitable for historic racing

Some suggestions of restricting car colours because they are not absolutely period perfect Nb or Nc is just nit picking do you agree?

Cheers

Chris

Who would dare to use garish colours on an historic car.. next thing they'll be painting red white and blue stripes on grey Jaguars

Cheers, Ian

There is no debate to move forward on the matter of authenticity. Albeit there are some original Coopers brought forward that are not replicas. Very few nowadays. We all know they are 850s etc...

An interesting debate about presentation of the cars though. in particular the visual aesthetics. Some say its up to the enthusiast spending the money on the thing, others say that a Nb / Nc car should replicate a 1966 Bathurst or Warwick Farm competitor which is the implication of the CAMS requirements (no matter how poorly presented due to voluntary work).

There is however some creedence to be respected for some of the cars that were not taken from the factory floor to the track like PB's No.99 purple car that stood out from the toga white over BRG etc. They DID exist as IMPROVED PRODUCTION so there should be some latitude for the cars that were extant at the day.

However, we need to keep this category going and respect it. Imagine if someone turned up and had a (albeit CAMS Approved) polka dot yellow/pink [supposed] cooper S? It would be the start of demeaning the class. In this case you can pass up the owner benefit argument and have some respect for the actual culture that we are attempting to pay some respect to.

As stated: "The look of the cars is carefully controlled so you should be able to look at a photo of a Group N race and be hard pressed to tell if it is now or the 1960s.

That is the point of HISTORIC racing. If you want to express yourself with paint go and race a club car or sports sedan. " We dont need to lose interest by stepping outside the goal posts now do we..."

You can look worldwide at heritage values - reduce them in any culture and when they lose significance, values reduce and just fade away. IMHO.

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..still waiting for the Italian Job sequel to see if the bus went down

The way the Regs are setout is really the only way to set them out and is quite simple if you read them all.
Firstly there are rules governing all 5th category cars. (includes Group N). They setout the 'philosophy' (ideology) of the category and the framework for the category. ie. tobacco sponsorship, signage, safety etc.
They are here: http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/08_his ... 2013-2.pdf

Then inside this 5th category there are rules specific to Historic Touring Cars (including Group N) covering also Group C & A. These don't cover open wheel race cars and are more specific to touring cars. Covers things like roll cages, bodywork, carbies, etc.
They are Here: http://www.camsmanual.com.au/pdf/08_his ... 2013-3.pdf

Then in the same link there is more specific, relative sub groups Na, Nb & Nc. These cover such things as wheel sizes, bore, stroke etc.

Even further detail than all these is the vehicle specific 'spec sheet'.
Here: http://docs.cams.com.au/Motorsport/Hist ... -%20Nb.pdf
This is as much designed for eligibility officers as for competitors. These sheets cover specific items like head casting numbers , gearbox numbers, flares or not, brakes specs etc. (airbox on mini)

So if you want to use a substitute head (Mk2 12G940 Head on Mk1 'S') or block or single H2S carbie then read from start to finish to decide.

Interestingly these sub Cats do vary. ie Group Na cannot use electronic dizzy but all Nb & Nc cars can, so you need to read from start to finish if you wish to use a component or build a car. They also clearly outline the period of racing they are trying to emulate. So Nb cars are representing touring cars that raced anywhere in the world, while NC cars had to have raced in Australia.

Interestingly there are numerous errors in the mini build sheets. The one that leaps off the page is the pic of the flares on the Nb Mini build sheet! Also the Nb build sheet has the transmission as syncro but 'not on first' but then a 22G1128 as a 'must be' casting number. Don't know what would happen if we left the baulk ring out on first to comply? Does anyone know if this has been brought up? Is this how 4 sync boxes or dog boxes are now 'approved' ?

As a note there are very often substitute parts being applied for such as the recently refused electric water pumps were not period. There is currently an application in for a substitute gearbox for EH's. The reasons given to accept it are clearly setout , such as parts NLA.

Incidentally I disagree with the upgrading of brakes to Nb cars.(brought in a couple of years ago) I think this goes against the 5th category as where a mini used to come on strong towards the end of a long race and be able to beat a Mustang or Nova, this large shortcoming of the big cars has been allowed to be greatly improved while offering little to nothing to the mini.
I propose last years Muscle Car Masters would have been very different in the feature race. The Muzzy would have not only run out of talent but would have had to moderate his brake use as per period!

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

& people ask me why i don`t race a Group N mini...

& don`t get me wrong please,,, i really do respect the Group N guys fully,,, i honestly do & i would love to race with all of them, that`d be great fun i`m sure,

but i don`t for a number of reasons->
firstly: how many cars can one person have? so do i add another to my already overly full stable?

2ndly: how much money does it cost to go to all the meetings? funny enough i`m not made of money

3rdly: look at all the red-tape , rules & politics & it`s almost a battle-field of interpretation clusterfarks out there.

4th-ly; (& this is the main one) --> why would i go to all that trouble, time & money just to go slower than i already am

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

This is why

http://i.imgur.com/wYwfsXa.jpg?1

Lakeside Tribute Meeting 17/03/13
First place best lap 64 secs

I Can help you with a couple of your points.

Firstly : I agree but you only have one ass so can only drive one at a time! "Overly full stable " sounds like the rest of us, they breed in the shed at night darling, is what I tell her.

2ndly: You don't need to go to all the meetings but I can tell you the change from $1000 from Bathurst , jingles. Ask the boys that ran if it was worth every penny? One day meeting coming up at E/creek short track is $180.The historic movement around the world is getting stronger every year and is like any motorsport it costs money.

3rdly: Politics comes into any gathering of people. This isn't unique to historics or even motorsport. Go to a CWA bake off and its all politics! More seriously once you have bought/built the car there is little to change other than consumables. The whole idea is to curb 'modern' development and keep the cars respecting the era. The politics is no more than any category.

4thyl: Going slower is a relative term! If lap times is your measure of speed then sell one mini to buy a Superkart! Bang for buck they are hard to beat. Quicker than a taxi and a fraction of their budget. Don't know what you consider 'fast' for spending $5 - 10k but thought this might help ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rkX-cQ6kZ0 Otherwise I think racing and beating bigger cars in a little car is just as rewarding as outright speed when under relatively fixed rules.

I do agree there are more affordable categories but it depends on what you like and how far up the grid you want to be.

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

hee hee,,, Ken you of all people should know i was doin 1min4secs in my Road mini back in the 90s with the Surfers Paradise Auto Racing Club

oh & fixed the pic for ya-->
http://i.imgur.com/wYwfsXa.jpg?1

& Bent65 yes i have raced in a whole pile of clubs & a whole pile of events with a whole pile of minis , my whole life. . . & i really would love to race in Group N , but my hillclimb/autocross special is just the thing for me atm & i find it really hard to "get into" any other car at this point in my life , it would be like """pretending""" to go fast in comparison... the buggy is pretty hard to beat as a package, especially for the price.

& as for the politics & rules & regs & etc etc etc well i`ve been deeply involved with Race car clubs my whole life (since i was a kid) so i know what happens inside & out.
Many people say that i was actually the cause/reason for the CAMS introduction of the 14 year old age limit (back then) i think it`s since been reduced to 12 years old for some events

So hence why i take a back seat when it comes to club politics & arguments these days,,, i`d much rather just be driving my race buggy

i don`t mean to sound pig-headed or conceited , but i`m a bit past the lap times of a whole bundle of categorys & i`m sure this is going to sound just like i have my head jammed right up my own hole (so be it) but i really am one for these goodies--> acceleration, grunt, top speed & handling... all joined into one cheap package.

& yeah look, a mini has a couple of those points but not all of them & certainly not all in the one package,,, & a good fast mini isn`t cheap either.

heck even my kombi ute is faster than a lot of current race cars, sorry to say but it`s true.

I`ve ticked a few boxes in my life with things like winning the Surfers Paradise Auto Racing Club Championship Both in class A & the Outright Championship,,, against all comers big & small, turbo injected & N/A , rotary & piston engines, old & young,,, also raced in Targa Tasmania Rally quite a few years back,,, raced my whole life actually.

But maybe i`ll look at slowing down & playing with the Group N guys when i`m a bit older

Sorry to butt in with this lot, i didnt want to turn this thread into a "Me" thread, i was just trying to show one of the pitfalls with this type of category & how it`s been plagued with everyone dancing around playing the "Originality" card for the last 30 odd years.

it`s just funny when there`s almost no "originality" in almost any of the cars in this category now-days,,, hard to see any of them that were actually racing in the scene back in the good old days hey?

Are the Mustangs still allowed the roller rockers??? (Edit--> when they were NOT even avaliable back then) `Are the minis still allowed 1100s blocks??? etc etc etc etc,,, you know what im saying & yes i know the "original" stuff is hard to get & not even worth racing with,,, but then why then are the std-ish colours insisted upon??? sorry but it all sounds a bit hypocritical to me.
If Carl Stecker was still alive,,, well he`d be turning in his grave right now, god rest his soul

keep up with the topic & i`ll keep my bib out.
carry on

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Great post Mini Man. Great Pic Ken awesome to see 2 big cars workng so hard to try to hang on to you!

Not going to turn this into a p##ssing contest but just wanted to outline my thoughts on the relativity of what is slow and what is fast. There may be people considering entering Group N and didn't want the other side of the story untold. I have had some of the most memorable moments of my life, going 'slow' in my group N mini, as I am sure you have over the years in your car/s.
The superkart thing was to illustrate that bang for buck outright speed is not going to be found in a mini based vehicle but a 'quick' group N mini is fantastic to watch in its category relative to other cars ie. muzzy's etc.
I haven't seen it myself but I Believe the MCM Nb feature race got TV coverage over the Nc's not because they were quicker but because the close racing and David and Goliath factor that people love. 2 completely different cars achieving similar lap times in vastly different ways. If it was formula mustang (as its heading) no one would have been as interested.

I am sure you have shown up or embarrassed some more fancied opposition in your time! Mind you I have also had my pants pulled down by a 1071 among others!

You have some valid points about the 'originality card' plaguing the category but this stems mostly from confusion. Group N is an historic category but it is not just for std series prod cars. Think of it as a line in the sand. If you look at Group C&A they try to draw the line as close to original as possible. ie. you have to nominate an actual event to establish the cars spec. They have been grappling with things like substitute ECUs as people cant afford to lean out and pop their skyline due to an original ECU that has less power than your calculator.
Group N has the line drawn somewhere further away from original but not too close to 'open slather' sports sedans, specials etc. It would be silly to expect a group N car to safely compete on the 'original' Dunlop aquajet tyres? (as per original). So what we are discussing is where (as a category) we want to draw the line. Biante's are sports sedans but try to look old. They don't/cant call themselves historics and their budgets send a shiver just thinking about it.

Interestingly Nick Swift has recently had a replacement 12G940 head approved for App K by FIA. Will these filter into Group N? Are they a performance advantage? Are didgy heads hard to find?

Errors, omissions and ambiguities in the Regs do create some confusion but I don't think we should throw the baby out with the bath water. My personal favourite is the definition for "original" : By “original” is meant a component, which is in all respects identically similar to that originally fitted, as produced by the manufacturer who produced the original component/s, and is indistinguishable from it in all
respects.
If anyone can tell me what "identically similar" means then I will have learnt something new today.

The substitute components are usually assessed on whether they offer a performance advantage and if/why there is a need for them? ie. 1100s block was approved as the S blocks are getting very hard to find and was argued they offer no performance advantage. They may be stiffer but they are heavier. I also heard a comical story that you used to have to glue S side covers to the block when they were first approved?

This may be a good forum to try to keep people informed of changes to vehicle specs, components?

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The formula for the length of a piece of string is simple: Twice as long as from one end to the centre!

You betcha...




Bent, I think you may find it is around the other way, the naughty boys, using 1100S, before they were approved, used to do that

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"Show me the Mini!"

Hey Matt

I think you'll find Ben is trying to say the group N formula has been around many decades & is within reason a fixed formula many people have tried.

The politics comes & goes.

It was done & still can be done to a budget.The MCM meeting he mentioned in 2012 showed a mini can beat a mustang (ten of them in fact ) & you can run the big meetings or smaller "club" & state races like you mentioned you did back in the 90's.

A lot of people see a $350 entry and three days racing as better value than a few 30 sec runs up a hill.

The 60's & 70's era has always been popular to race in & i hope it gets stronger & more professionally run.

There will always be someone who has more funds to build a better mousetrap but in Group N there are plenty of oportunities to compete against other cars of different makes & models in the same race.

Speaking of your racing....why don't we see more Queenslanders coming down to race in the supermini series.....? That 1600 cc six speed box sports sedan your mate owns you've mentioned a few times...will we ever see it race in anger..?

Would be good to see it,Fred sayers,Coatsie & some others come down & get the numbers up hey...?

AB.

Great discussion all

Bent --- it will still take me a while to digest all the rules etc... the way you laid them out makes it seem clearer (i am a bit slow) so i will re-read as suggested... would still love to able to throw out the occasional stupid question , as an outlier (Cairns doesn't get much Nb action or supersedan work ) i don't get the same chances to be around the scene as such.

Ken ... love the photo,, look at the load on the inner back tyre of the big tank.

i'll add more stupidity to the mix (or fuel to the fire), tell me the differences in mini nb specs and nc?

I am happy to chat individually with people to get some of this info ( i was just teasing)

I love the period piece historics and i also like the mean look of the supers

but getting the balancing act of the rules and regs right is always going to have some spice.

hee hee,,, yeah all good & valid points & i`m certainly not going to argue with any of them , the fact is that i really like group N & i do respect * admire all of you guys, especially the faster of you

i reckon that one day i "might" hit the track with an N car, almost went halves with a friend building one a little while ago, till i realised that it would be very much like when i raced go-karts--> totally consuming me & everything about & around me.

I`ve done a fair bit of "other" racing in my life too, reaching top level & these things do tend to consume me, so i know if i did group N then it would take "All of me" ,,, & for more reasons than just one



I love it, i really do,,, i wouldn`t go to watch the guys when they`re "ALL" up here at Morgan Pk now would i?

Like i said in one of my earlier posts,--> please don`t get me wrong boys & girls,,, i love this stuff, i really do... do you really thing i have any large problem with any mini racing??? really???

just it`s not for me just yet, the time isn`t quite right for me just yet i reckon

& yeah Stewy has been toying with his sports sedan , fangin it arund trying to sort out all DG`s build problems, (eng out & fix clutch,,, engine back in & test,,, engine back out & fix diff,,, engine back in & fix gearbox again & again & again we have been finding dramas with the build of it,,, poor bugga i feel for Stew cause he`s put soooo much into the damn thing & it`s still not right

anyways, i doubt that he will venture south with it,,, not for a while yet anyways... i know he`d very much like to tho

anyways,,, i`m in Byron & the surf is awesome have fun , i`ll see you on the track soon enough maybe i`ll enjoy going slow (in comparison)

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

AB we are putting together some fellas to come down and play with you roaches. Myself, Dave, Phil are all takers and will be down either this coming meet or the next one, depending on Dave and Phil sorting out their cars in time. Nobody wants to travel 14 hrs to have a DNF. Any other takers for a drive south, Kenny I will be knocking on your door soon and same for Freddy. A group run south would be good fun.
G. PS Matt get stuey to pull his finger out and at least bring it to Lakeside for a run. Hell bring that kombi should be good for a laugh.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

found you a transporter....

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did I tell you that I won a trophy?