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Primary gear / Idler gear - THE VERDICT pg2 :-(
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Author:  J_A_M [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Primary gear / Idler gear - THE VERDICT pg2 :-(
If a primary gear was tight (not enough end float) what would be the symptoms?

If an idler gear was tight (not enough end float) what would be the symptoms?

I am removing my clutch and primary gear this weekend, and just want to get a clearer understanding of their operation.
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:44 am ]
Post subject: 
as the engine heats up, the primary (&/or) idlergear will get even tighter & if you sat , stationary with engine running & foot on the clutch with the car in gear,,,it would want to creep as tho the clutch isn`t dis-engaged completely

also,,,if the Idler gear was tight, then you`d be loosing a heap of power while driving as it is grabbing both the primary case thrust & the gearbox side thrust very hard & causing lots of friction & would inevitably get tighter & tighter as it heats up & expands even more,,,if this was the case, then when you rip it all out, you will notice a very darkish blue/black discolouration on the thrusts/gear/& cases

if the primary gear was too tight, you will also find similar dark overheated dis-colourisation & possibly end up with it tottally grabbing up & jamming so then the clutch would feel like it`s not dis-engaging at all.

lots more involved even, but still you should have a pretty good picture by now

end of dribble session :-)
Author:  Matt68 [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:46 am ]
Post subject: 
If there is not enough end float on the primary gear, it won't spin freely on the crank and you will get clutch drag.

If the idler gear has not enough end float, I have no idea?

Get a dti gauge and magnetic base (for about $70) and look on calver's corner for method of checking end float!!

Sorry can't be more help!

Matt
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:06 am ]
Post subject: 
You will only need a set of "Feeler Gauges" to check end float

primary gear is easy to check, clip it all on the crank & stick feeler gauges in till the firmest one but still the gear can turn,,,that amount is the "End float"

you will want about 5thou on both the primary gear & the ider gear

the ider gear is a little trickier to check,,,you`ll need to shove the idler gear into it`s spot,,,bolt up the primary case "WITH" the primary gasket that you`re going to use (there are different thivkness gaskets avaliable) & do it all up to the correct torque,,,& then check using the feeler gauges in behind the gear, inbetween the gear & the thrust or the thrust & the case etc,,,somehwere in between the gear/thrusts & cases & then that will be the "end float" for the idler gear....you can either muck with thgrust washers & or gasket thicknesses

easy-peasy
Author:  J_A_M [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:06 am ]
Post subject: 
TheMiniMan wrote:
if you sat , stationary with engine running & foot on the clutch with the car in gear,,,it would want to creep as tho the clutch isn`t dis-engaged completely


That is one of the symptoms I have with my Mini.

Clutch in, gearbox in gear, engine running.....car won't roll freely. If I stop/start/stop in traffic, car jerks and shudders and wants to drive forward when I have clutch in and foot on brake.

Tight primary gear???
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:09 am ]
Post subject: 
could be any number of reasons...is the engine out of the car at the moment???
Author:  J_A_M [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:15 am ]
Post subject: 
negative......in car.

I am hoping it's prmary gear....easier to fix NOW than idler gear.

I failed to check both when I put the motor together.... :oops: ...you live and learn!!!
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 
oops,,,yeah well,,,you`ve now learnt :-)

Ok,,,first thing to do is rip out the starter motor,,,pull the clutch arm right out using a crow bar or similar & grab a thin long screw driver & see if you can turn the clutch plate with it,,,if you know what i mean?

you`ll find that by "Manually" opperating the clutch arm to it`s fullest extent negates any dramas from hydraulics or linkage play etc so should rule out any "external" clutch effects

if the clutch plate won`t turn "easilly" then maybe rip the whole clutch out (leaving the engine in the car for the time being) & see what you san see

it`s easy to check & repair any primary gear dramas in the car,,,but very hard to effect any idler gear dramas with the engine still in the car,,,not impossible,,,but not worth trying really either,,,if there`s ider dramas then you will see when the primary gear is out & therefore, you`ll need to rip the donk out to rpeair it

have fun :-)
Author:  J_A_M [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:31 am ]
Post subject: 
TheMiniMan wrote:
oops,,,yeah well,,,you`ve now learnt :-)

Ok,,,first thing to do is rip out the starter motor,,,pull the clutch arm right out using a crow bar or similar & grab a thin long screw driver & see if you can turn the clutch plate with it,,,if you know what i mean?


if the clutch plate doesn't turn, is the primary gear too tight?


....thanks for the tips so far....much appreciated!
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:42 am ]
Post subject: 
If the clutch plate won`t turn "easilly" then it still could be anything.,,...but at least you will know that the problem is "Internal" & not external,,,that`s why i said , the next thing to do is to rip the clutch out, cause then you can see if it`s the primary geasr or the idler gear or something else

stet by step to the diagnose thing

you won`t want to rip the whol;e donk out & pull it all down/arpat , only to find that it was an external hydraulic clutch travel problem hey?

rip the starter out first thing & check the clutch p[late turns with the arm pulled right out...even back off the "over throw" nuts to make sure.

then see what`s happening after that ...OK???
Author:  Mike_Byron [ Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Oil on the clutch plate, from a weeping clutch oil seal, will also give a shudder, and poorly disengaging clutch assembly.

All the clutch work can be done in the car but its a tight squeeze and very hard to get the transfer case off. I am actually doing a clutch job today.

Something I found out from Doogie on Sunday is that the shims on the idler gear come in different thickness to cope with irregularities in the transfer gear casing. In my case, as i did up the nuts on a replacement transfer casing, the whole primary gear, idler assembly etc was binding up. The replacement transfer casing needed but thinner shims.
Author:  Matt68 [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 
The manuals I got say the end float on the primary gear should be 0.003" - 0.008".

Does this sound right?

Makes me think 0.05" as Mad Matt suggested is a bit too much!

Anyone able to clarify?

Cheers
Matt
Author:  J_A_M [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:50 am ]
Post subject: 
Apparently my motor had about .020" primary gear end float before it was stripped down. I think with that much when you back off you get that "ren nen nen nen" sound with too much? Am I correct???


EDIT: I think Matt meant 5 thou (.005")
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
oops,,,did i type .05" ?????

should have been .005" sorry

5 thou
5 thou
5thou
5thou
5thou

i`ll type "5 thou" from now on

:-)
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Matt68,,,are you just trying to trick me or what???????

i just read my previous posts & i did type "5 thou" & not .05"

you are just trying to make me look insane aren`t you???

well,,,you`re doing a dam good job :-)

& besides,,,you don`t have to try to make me look insane,,,cause i allready am insane

so,,,there you have it,,,i am insane ,,,but i did type "5 thou" after all

5 thou
5 thou
5 thou

:-)
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