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Tip: How to remove a Gemini starter motor for your mini https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20815 |
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Author: | supercharged 850 [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Tip: How to remove a Gemini starter motor for your mini |
Went down to the wreckers today armed with spanners, sockets, wrenches, universal joints, extension bars, etc etc...... and lucky I did too, cos most were used while simply trying to get this Gemini starter motor out. Why a Gemini starter motor??? Good question. Gemini starter motors are PRE-ENGAGED, meaning that *edit->* as you turn the key to `start' the solenoid atop the starter first mechanically moves the drive pinion into mesh with the flywheel, THEN energises the starter to spin *<-edit* ..... which makes both the starter and the flywheel gears last a whole lot longer. A mini starter motor gear is normally not touching the flywheel gear until you turn the key or press the starter button. But before the gears mesh, they start spinning, which leads to gear wear on both the starter and the flywheel. If you take your mini starter motor out, you can see that one side of the teeth on the flywheel have been worn away. If this gets bad enough, the starter will make bad grinding noises instead of starting your engine. This could result in you needing a new flywheel. But the reason for this write up is to help you save time and headaches at the self-serve Gemini wrecking yard. Basically, the only way to get these bloody things out is to either: -Remove the inlet manifold assembly (for best access) OR -Remove the steering column. (for poor acess, but less dismantling) The starter motor is at the back of the engine, and is fairly hard to get to..... but definately WONT come out without removing the other mentioned parts. It comes with the starter solenoid as part of the assembly. You will use that too. ----- To remove the inlet manifold, you will need : -10mm anything to undo the rocker cover nuts. -11mm open end spanner to remove the 4 carby nuts. -12mm socket on a short extension bar AND 12mm ring spanner to undo the 8 manifold nuts. -13mm socket to undo the 2 starter motor bolts. -Strong side cutters to cut thru the wires connected to the starter solenoid. And there are alot of hoses and things that are connected to the manifold that will need undoing/cutting That method will take you 40ish minutes. ------- To remove the steering column, you will need to undo the universal joints and splined ends. The same assortment of tools should cover that, but I didnt try this method. The starter will still be difficult to get to, but at least now you can get it out of the car by going underneath. ------- Now that youve got it out of the Gemini, clean it up, and trial fit it in your mini. You will see that the 2 mounting holes are not lined up.... you will need to file the starter motor holes a little bit with a round file. Just look into the holes and you will see which part is in the way. Brand new Gemini starter motors can be bought for around $120....... or you could buy a used one from a self serve wrecker for $30. Cheaper than a new flywheel ![]() The only problem you might have: An oil cooler fitted in the factory "S" position will be right where the starter motor will go..... because the Gemini starter assembly is bigger than a mini one. More information will come, i'm sure ![]() *edit* Thanks Doc. |
Author: | drmini in aust [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:46 am ] |
Post subject: | |
Good writeup, but... `Pre-engaged' does not mean the pinion is in mesh all the time... it's not. As you turn the key to `start' the solenoid atop the starter first mechanically moves the drive pinion into mesh with the flywheel, THEN energises the starter to spin. When you release the key, the solenoid moves the pinion out of mesh. This system is used on 99.9% of modern cars. Another benefit of this system is if the engine kicks but fails to run, it won't throw the pinion out of mesh as the Mini one does. The pinion has a over-run clutch in it to prevent the starter overspeeding as the engine starts. ![]() |
Author: | TK [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:48 am ] |
Post subject: | |
yeah this has been discussed so many times. Good hints for removal though ![]() |
Author: | Molina [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I hadn't realised how crap a starter motor could be until i owned a mini. As you said Dr my engine kicks but doesn't start sometimes and it throws the pinion out of mesh. It makes the worst noise. It also struggles to turn the engine over sometimes... i suspect the high compression isn't helping. Are there any pics showing how it will collide with an oil cooler? A gemini starter sounds great but i have a cooler fitted to my engine ![]() |
Author: | pristic [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I dont have a cooler... but couldnt the cooler be moved? Yes, would involve new plumbing but... Peter. |
Author: | Morris 1100 [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Hmmm, The Lucas starter was used on Formula 1 cars in the 60's and Jack Brabham used them on his world championship winning Brabham cars. How many world championships has the Gemini starter won? ![]() ![]() |
Author: | drmini in aust [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
As an aside, somebody posted on here a while back thet the geMini starter is actually LESS powerful than the good old Lucas!! ![]() ![]() ![]() I get by with the Lucas (factory recond in UK) and a bigass 550CCA Exide battery. It spins the 1360 with 10.7:1 C/R like a top!. Same setup works fine in the wife's 1293... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. re the S oil cooler- I have seen it moved towards the radiator on race cars to make room, after doing away with the stiffener bracket that goes up onto the `slam' panel. Makes that panel pretty flimsy though. |
Author: | Morris 1100 [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
I think a lot of the problems with the Lucas starter is that they are 40 years old. The cable from the battery is 40 years old and the solenoid is 40 years old. When everything is in good condition they will work well. But when things deteriorate problems will pop up. Ring gears wear out and make the starter work harder. The battery in the boot will not help things with a bit of voltage drop because of the long cable. My Morris 1100 still has the original 1966 starter on it and it works every morning, even at -10. ![]() |
Author: | simon k [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Morris 1100 wrote: I think a lot of the problems with the Lucas starter is that they are 40 years old. The cable from the battery is 40 years old and the solenoid is 40 years old. When everything is in good condition they will work well. But when things deteriorate problems will pop up.
yeah, damn straight.... it bugs me when people bag Lucas stuff - I reckon it's teriffic, but like everything it gets neglected and that's when things go wrong. Stainless on here drives his 4 amps and 6x 15" subs with a Lucas 15AC alternator, has never had a problem with it ![]() |
Author: | Morris 1100 [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Alternator! Waste of time, I use a generator. ![]() Look at how many blokes will bag Lucas because their wiring harness melts after they fit the air horns and 100watt headlights. Keep it standard. (don't try to force more smoke through the 40 year old wires) Keep it clean. (Oil and dirt will kill electrics) Keep it like new. (replace worn out bits and repair as needed) |
Author: | 9YaTaH [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | rewind |
A fella down here with a warmed over MKII Cooper S took his average starter motor to an auto elec for a rewind...they said they could add some turns to armature....they did....and it is said to spint like a top. Might be worth investigating ![]() |
Author: | SIK-NUTZ-MINI [ Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | |
Morris 1100 wrote: Hmmm, The Lucas starter was used on Formula 1 cars in the 60's and Jack Brabham used them on his world championship winning Brabham cars.
How many world championships has the Gemini starter won? ![]() ![]() I own a Gemini so i know a fair bit about them. Some of the Gemini starters are being used for strong, reliable and quite powerful cars for street use. Mean while there are a large handfull accross Australia runnint 13 seconds on the quarter even down to 9's and 8's ... and these engines are 1600cc/1800cc/2000cc. Also these engines can produce 300-500HP all day, every day. The humble little Gemini isnt all that a grandma should drive. some of them are wild and insane. Some of them even house a 3.8 supercharged v6 or even a 215i 5 litre both street legal! At the moment my Gemini is being stripped and repaired to house a different engine, either from a Skyline or from a 300Z. So no they dont win races, but they do have the power to run sub 10 second pass's. Adam. |
Author: | supercharged 850 [ Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:11 am ] |
Post subject: | |
drmini in aust wrote: Good writeup, but...
`Pre-engaged' blah blah blah......... ![]() That is what I meant to say. ![]() ![]() Ta ![]() |
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