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A Throwout issue
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=23833		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Gerard [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  A Throwout issue
Hi all I have been very very quiet as of late - promotion at work feels like a demotion - $10 extra a day for a tonne of stress , worry and extra work.

Anyway I have an issue with the mini again that I am hoping that the most talented mini people in the world (that is eeryone here) could possibly give me some advice on.

I had a throwout bearing die on me about 4 weeks ago - I took the mini to the mechanics who was too busy to replace for me (I just think he saw mini and said WE ARE WAY TOOOOOO BUSY). So anyway I spent a week of afternoons after work replacing the bearing in his workshop. He then tuned the car for me 32.8BHP at the wheels - car goes like a rocket.

Well it did until the weekend that just went when I had the same throwout problems (no gears when motor is running - it will not go in - no clutch). I popped the bonnet and found that the locking nut on the end of the throwout spigot (for want of a betterrererer word) was wound all the way too the end and the housing nut was not very tight on the throwout arm at all. I tightened this up by hand (no tools on me at the time) but this did not help. So I callled RACQ (Roadside assistance) and all they could say was you are going to have to take the housing cover off again, which gave me a free lift home on the back of a flat bed.

Anyway they questions i have are 1. Would the throwout bearing die this quickly? 2. would just making adjustments (readjustments) on the spigot nuts fix my issue? 3. Does anyone have any ideas????

Cheers Gerard :? :? :? :?
Author:  drmini in aust [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:43 am ]
Post subject: 
The spigot locknuts on the end do not adjust the clutch, they merely stop the clutch from throwing TOO far. Not your problem by the sounds of it, unless they are 2 close and restricting clutch travel..
I would:
1. adjust those 2 nuts well away from cover.
2 remove arm return spring.
3. adjust the little stop bolt to have .020" clearance.
4. refit the spring.
5. check you have full pedal travel, ie pedal will go to floor.

Test drive. If clutch is OK, THEN have somebody hold the pedal down, and wind the 2 spigot nuts gently against the cover and lock them. :wink:
Author:  aaron [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A Throwout issue
Gerard wrote:
He then tuned the car for me 32.8BHP at the wheels - car goes like a rocket.


Is this the new 1275 motor that you had tuned? I'm hoping for your sake that his dyno is reading very differently to the one down here when the 998 that was in it read 28.5hp.

Cheers
Aaron
Author:  GT [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:54 am ]
Post subject: 
When you release your clutch, should the bearing carrier retract so far that the thrust bearing stops spinning?

If so, yours may not be retracting far enough, and therefore the bearing is constantly spinning, causing premature wear.
Author:  Gerard [ Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Some Dyno is out because yep the 1275 is the one pulling 32.8 at the wheels - the motor is heaps stronger than the 998.

Thanks for the advice guys - much appreciated
Cheers Gerard
Author:  Gerard [ Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey all
Tried to adjust the clutch .... no luck
so i took off the clutch housing - got that down packed now
however throwout is in good condition still

how do i check the clutch etc now the housing is off?? without having to take the flywheel off - Unless somone knows of an ez way of doing this

Also how would i check the clutch slave cynlinder - maybe that is the issue here

Cheers Gerard
Author:  doogie [ Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Has the ball on the end of the clutch arm got a hairline crack in it causing the arm to open up?

Doogie
Author:  smac [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:24 am ]
Post subject: 
Not sure why you took the housing off again...as stated above (I think!) the throwout failing won't stop you getting a gear (unless it completely shattered). You'll hear it going first.
You could perhaps describe better what the symptom is as well - when you say you can't get a gear does this mean it won't shift at all, or the clutch is not disengaging etc
You haven't confirmed how you adjusted the lock nut and the clutch stop.
In my own experience (meaning I've done it, but so have others) people underestimate the little stop bolt. If it's not right (in too far) the clutch will return to far and a tired system may not have enough throw to disengage. Could also be a clevis issue, or ball on the end of the arm....lots of things. Start with the basics then move on.
Step one - with everything completely assembled, how much throw are you getting at the slave cylinder, and does it hold out or creep in?
Author:  Wombat [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey Gerard, do you want me to come around and we have a play with it together - two heads may be better than one. Where to you live?
Author:  Gerard [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Doogie - I checked that because i had a hairline fracture on the last one - $80 to buy a new arm that time

Smac - Last time i lost the throwout bearing i did not haear it beginning to fail (I thinki i am a bloody expert at removing the housing now tho, just have to get the it back on). Symptom is is that when the motor is running, push the clutch in and cannot push gear lever into gear. I adjusted the clutch stop and stop bolt as per Kevins instructions above. I think you are right tho that I am not etting enough throw from the slave cylinder - hopefully i will have it back together this afternoon and I will put these measurements back on here, ta.

Wombat - Mate that would be much appreciated - Live at Tanah Merah - opposite Logan Hyperdome on the South East Freeway.... Only if you ae not too busy.

Thanks heaps guys
Cheers Gerard
Author:  Matt68 [ Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Sounds like it is a clutch travel issue. Check all of your clevis pins for play (a little here makes a big difference).They are cheap, I'd replace them.

What condition is the slave cylinder?

How much movement do you get from the pushrod?

Once pedal is down, does the pushrod move back in at all?

I'd back the two big nuts (throwout stops) right off, don't worry about bringing them back in until everything else is sorted. I have it on good authority that these are superfluous on diaphpram spring clutchs anyway!

How much does the bearing carrier move when you push the pedal? (with the two big nuts on one end.) Measure it if possible.

Rod change? Have you checked the linkage mechanism to make sure the problem doesn't lie there?

Good Luck
Author:  Gerard [ Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Hey Matt (and Everyone)
I put the housing back on yesterday afternoon and clutch arm hooked back in then got my next door neighbours 10 year old to come over and push the clutch in and I could not see/feel any movement of the clutch plate against the flywheel. Phoned Jack and his idea was to put the car in 4th back on the ground and put a crow bar in behind the clutch arm and push it out, see if i can get the car to roll (in gear) to rule out the pedal and hydraulics (I haver not tried this yet). Slave Cylider has not given me any grief and is not leaking so i am not sure if it is that.
ewww I forgot to measure the pin travel...
Pushrod doesn't move back when the pedal is in.
How would be the best way to measure the bearing carrier???
It is Rod Change - However when the engine is not running the gears can be changed so i assumed it would not be that linkage mechanism.

Cheers Gerard - Thanks again for everyones help
Author:  minimalist_1 [ Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi,
Yep Matt68 is right about the throw out stop (ie the two big nuts) You don't need them. When i was younger and not so hands on with my mini i went to a couple of mini specialasts. Bot of them either didn't install these nuts on diaphram clutches or they took them off and cut the threaded section off completely.

Also if you find when you press the clutch in and it tavels back under peddal pressure it might be wothwhile checking the clutch master. I had this problem not that long ago so i installed one of those new delphi lockheed plastic tank jobs. I have never had a better clutch on my mini.
Author:  Matt68 [ Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Gerard wrote:
Hey Matt (and Everyone)
I put the housing back on yesterday afternoon and clutch arm hooked back in then got my next door neighbours 10 year old to come over and push the clutch in and I could not see/feel any movement of the clutch plate against the flywheel. Phoned Jack and his idea was to put the car in 4th back on the ground and put a crow bar in behind the clutch arm and push it out, see if i can get the car to roll (in gear) to rule out the pedal and hydraulics (I haver not tried this yet). Slave Cylider has not given me any grief and is not leaking so i am not sure if it is that.
ewww I forgot to measure the pin travel...
Pushrod doesn't move back when the pedal is in.
How would be the best way to measure the bearing carrier???
It is Rod Change - However when the engine is not running the gears can be changed so i assumed it would not be that linkage mechanism.

Cheers Gerard - Thanks again for everyones help


Firstly, just wanting to confirm you have set the clutch stop to the correct clearance? The book says 60 thou clearance butween the stop nut and clutch arm when you have the return spring off and the arm pulled back (bearing on clutch).

I run 30 thou clearance, not sure what is the best here tho.

When you say you could not see/feel any movement of the clutch plate against the flywheel, what do you mean? Like the bearing carrier wasn't travelling far enough?

To measure the travel of the carrier, use a set of vernier calipers (I have a broken set that will fit :wink: ) or a set of feeler gauges (then add up the total) between the end of the housing and the two big nuts. They are useful for something :wink: .

What I'm trying to figure out is if there is enough travel at the release bearing to push the clutch diaphram in and release the clutch from the flywheel.

Have you got new clevis pins or checked the old ones for wear?
Author:  smac [ Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Gerard wrote:
Hey Matt (and Everyone)
got my next door neighbours 10 year old to come over and push the clutch in and I could not see/feel any movement of the clutch plate against the flywheel.


How can you see the clutch plate not moving on the flywheel? Do you mean that when the pedal is pushed the arm doesn't move at all? If so, shagged hydraulics (either SC or MS). I think you also said the pin doesn't move back in when you release the pedal? But you just said it doesn't move out??!! Anyway, a non returning arm is stuffed clutch hose (the flexi one). The insides swell up and act like a one way valve.
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