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and think I am noticing more pinging than usual (had been using BP Ultimate before, and didn't notice as much

Alcohol has less heat energy than petrol (3x less) so you can expect a bit less (10%/3 =3.33%) fuel economy. Good thing it's cheaper then... :lol:

drmini in aust wrote:

Alcohol has less heat energy than petrol (3x less) so you can expect a bit less (10%/3 =3.33%) fuel economy. Good thing it's cheaper then... :lol:

Their advertising claims "much improved economy" :shock:

I'd be inclined to believe your words dr before a petrol company's advertising men :roll:

Interesting......

Carburettor Equipped Engines

Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks.

The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure.

Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased.

As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components.

Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.

OK, thanks for all that. It seems to me that my suspicions are confirmed, and the fuel may well be the cause (or at least contributing to) of the pinging and the vaporisation in the pump.
Think I will change back to Ultimate, and see how she goes. Stuff the environment....... :roll:

Peter

Author:	peter1 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:	saff fuel
G'day - anybody had any experience with SAFF fuel, 98 Octane? This is the enviro friendly stuff. Have used it for the last couple of tanksfulls in the S, and think I am noticing more pinging than usual (had been using BP Ultimate before, and didn't notice as much ). Anyone else experienced similar? Peter.

Author:	Spaceboy [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:
10+ ethanol blends are not recommended for vehicles fitted with carburettors as damage to the fuel system may result.

Author:	slinkey inc [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:
I've been using SAFF 98 in my red mini pretty much since it's been on the road (about 2 year) and SAFF 95 in the yellow Mini since we've owned it (about 3 years). No issues, and at the Golden Grove station they pump the fuel for ya! I run the 98 in my supercharged Mini, no pinging, and I bet that needs the higher octane more than your S. Are you sure it's pinging more than usual or is it just you? It shouldn't ping at all.... BTW for those who aren't so educated, the only real issue with Ethanol is that it attracts water. Due to the hydroxyl group that makes it an 'alcohol'. This secondary attraction to water is called "hydrogen bonding". Basic year 11 and a bit of year 12 chemistry, nothing fancy. Also it tends to eat plastic parts, but that really shouldn't be an issue in a Mini. As for problems with carbs, I can't really see any issues there. <edit> Might I add we are only talking 10% ethanol blend here.

Author:	simon k [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: saff fuel
peter1 wrote: and think I am noticing more pinging than usual (had been using BP Ultimate before, and didn't notice as much ). you don't want to notice any pinging at all... so just retard your distributor a little bit, turn it anti-clockwise a couple of millimeters and it should clear. You might like to mark the current position first - I like marking it with a razor blade, gives an accurate mark that doesn't rub off or face

Author:	drmini in aust [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:
Alcohol has less heat energy than petrol (3x less) so you can expect a bit less (10%/3 =3.33%) fuel economy. Good thing it's cheaper then...

ausmini https://www.ausmini.com/forums/

saff fuel https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=39296	Page 1 of 3

Author:	peter1 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:
Yeh, I used to get just a little bit of pinging eg if I let the revs drop too low coming out of corner and gave it a lot of throttle, but today it seemed to rattle up nearly every hill - mind you it was a faint "tinny "ratlle (hard to descibe in words) as opposed to the normal louder rattle that I'm familiar with. As said, the "loud" rattle only occurs under "extreme" conditions, and lasts just a second or so. I know it shouldn't do it all, so some tuning required, but it just seemed more prevalent today with this "softer" rattle. I wish I had a recording - it's hard to describe. Maybe it wasn't pinging at all, and just something rattling at certain vibration frequencies, but it was only obvious uphill. I guess my main interest was whether or not the fuel was contributing to it..... I'll have a fiddle (and with the car too..... ). Peter.

Author:	peter1 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:
drmini in aust wrote: Alcohol has less heat energy than petrol (3x less) so you can expect a bit less (10%/3 =3.33%) fuel economy. Good thing it's cheaper then... Their advertising claims "much improved economy" I'd be inclined to believe your words dr before a petrol company's advertising men Interesting......

Author:	peter1 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Crikey, 3 posts in a row. Another thought - is an ethanol % fuel like this more inclined to vaporisation? I reckon it's only since using it, on a warm day, if the car is turned off for a few minutes, when turned back on the electric fuel pump kicks up a hell of a racket for a few seconds, as if it's pumping air, and then goes back to normal ticking. To me this sounds like a vapour lock in the pump. Of course the fuel pump is quite near the muffler, and I'm going to make up some sort of shield for it, but I wonder if the fuel also contributes to this?

Author:	drmini in aust [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:
peter1 wrote: drmini in aust wrote: Alcohol has less heat energy than petrol (3x less) so you can expect a bit less (10%/3 =3.33%) fuel economy. Good thing it's cheaper then... Their advertising claims "much improved economy" I'd be inclined to believe your words dr before a petrol company's advertising men Interesting...... Let me put it this way- when running a bike engine on 100% methanol, the carby jets are 3x bigger in cross section. (source- Tuning for Speed- Phil Irving). OK they do get more power (C/R is 16:1 or so) but economy is out the window.

Author:	Morris 1100 [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:
I think the thing with the ethanol petrols is that the ethanol is being used to raise the octane and it results in a more efficient fuel. It is not just a matter of getting petrol and adding 10% ethanol, it probably means that they can leave out the toluene and add the ethanol! Most people I know that use E10 have noticed a slight increase in economy. (some have noticed a decrease )

Author:	Spaceboy [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:17 pm ]
Post subject:
ethanol has less energy than petrol, so like the doc says, it will decrease fuel economy by about 3% for E10. octane rating does not indicate the energy content of fuel, rather the fuel's resistance to knocking/detonation higher octane fuels are not more efficient unless they have additives which increase their energy content. (Bp claims an increase in fuel economy for Ultimate) pinging does sound like a faint rattle. also check your air/fuel ratio because it could be running lean i have tried using E10 and i could smell petrol fumes, so i stopped using it. check this website http://www.fcai.com.au/ethanol.php/2007 ... 00005.html Quote: Carburettor Equipped Engines Vehicles made before 1986 vehicles were predominantly equipped with carburettors and steel fuel tanks. The use of ethanol blended petrol in engines impacts the air/fuel ratio because of the additional oxygen molecules within the ethanol's chemical structure. Vehicles with carburettor fuel systems may experience hot fuel handling concerns. This is because the vapour pressure of fuel with ethanol will be greater (if the base fuel is not chemically adjusted) and probability of vapour lock or hot restartability problems will be increased. As a solvent, ethanol attacks both the metallic and rubber based fuels lines, and other fuel system components. Ethanol also has an affinity to water that can result in corrosion of fuel tanks and fuel lines. Rust resulting from this corrosion can ultimately block the fuel supply rendering the engine inoperable. Water in the fuel system can also result in the engine hesitating and running roughly.

Author:	Circus_Maximus [ Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:38 pm ]
Post subject:
G'Day Peter, You will need to richen your mixture slightly (3%) to make up for the ethanol. EFI cars don't have this bother as the computer automatically corrects the mixture, but with carbys, you should set them up for your preference and stick with it. There are no real savings with ethanol as you need more fuel to go the same distance......

Author:	peter1 [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:24 am ]
Post subject:
OK, thanks for all that. It seems to me that my suspicions are confirmed, and the fuel may well be the cause (or at least contributing to) of the pinging and the vaporisation in the pump. Think I will change back to Ultimate, and see how she goes. Stuff the environment....... Peter

Author:	drmini in aust [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:51 am ]
Post subject:
peter1 wrote: OK, thanks for all that. It seems to me that my suspicions are confirmed, and the fuel may well be the cause (or at least contributing to) of the pinging and the vaporisation in the pump. Think I will change back to Ultimate, and see how she goes. Stuff the environment....... Peter As for the environment, it takes more energy (including fossil fuel for harvesting the crop) to produce 1L of ethanol than the energy you get from it. I'll use this stuff in Minis only when there is NO alternative.

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Author:	watto [ Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:55 am ]
Post subject:
Not so much to do with pinging, performance or economy, but this so-called Enviro-fuel. According to the Caltex Website: "Use of Ethanol may reduce some air pollutants but increases others, so there is probably no significant overall effect on air quality." So, if you want to use 10% ethanol mix fuels to help "Save the Environment", forget it. As Doc said it takes more energy to create the stuff than it's worth. It looks like it is not worth using to increase economy, and the 10% blend seems to be the (debatable) limit on safe levels for use in older cars (ie: not specifically designed for Ethanol). If you want to save money, then use 95RON fuel and tune the car accordingly - but realistically, use 98RON and tune the car for that, eleminate pinging, increase performance and economy (due to the additives as well) and pay less than 10% more(with todays' highly inflated prices). There has been plenty of debate about on this forum about advantages and disadvantages of one brand against another, but I think find one you are happy with and try to stick with it - but always when you change the type of fuel you use on a regular basis (the occasional tank of something else doesn't seem to matter) tune the car accordingly. These are simply my observations from the small amount of driving (sarcasm filter on) that I do in my Mini. Cheers, Watto.