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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 1:19 pm 
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1098cc
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Thanks Graham, thanks Miniman, thanks Simon.

The 998 I did was standard comp, and both 1275's were 9.75:1. I don't know, I'm not thick and from what I'm seeing I'm sure you guys aren't the only ones to have problems. I guess I'll try another ACL gasket on my next one? In the mean time I guess I'll just wait for these three to blow or something, as I said they're fine at the moment but it sounds like they maybe time bombs? I was just put off the ACL ones because they didn't function as a true monotorque which left me to question it. I don't like the standard ones cos they were messy to clean off. Which only left me with the copper ones.

Well I guess this is why I stopped being a hermit and signed up here, not to pi$$ people off but to see what other people have found and what I can learn from them. I just found this totally foreign and wierd cos it's the first I've heard of it, but thanks for beating me into submission I guess :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:05 pm 
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Oh dear, worry, worry...

Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:31 pm
Posts: 686
Location: North Rocks
Hi Phat Kat
We can all learn from each other as no body is a expert im
far from it i listen to people be it from a 15 year old kid to
some body from the other side, i like to think i can something
new every day, thats why i have cups of tea/coffee with every
body you would be surprised what you can learn over a cuppa
I wish i could learn to type faster.
Graham Russell


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:31 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:07 pm
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Location: Lemmings, everywhere.
I agree that the copper head gaskets that you get these days a rubbish but remember that they are designed to have sealent applied to them, If you must use one then I suggest you purchase a can of Hylomar spray on sealent and give the gasket a good coating. These days modern headgaskets (eg BK450) have a sealent type rubber coating allready applied and rarely give trouble. Like GR i have reused them on test engines and they work, except sometimes on high comp 1380 engines where you are pushing the limits of the gasket between the cylinders. Holden V8 engines used steel shims from the factory and rarly gave trouble, RR Merlin engines didnt have a gasket at all, but both had sealent applied.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:35 pm 
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Thanks Graham,

I have never claimed to know anything either, that's why I like to ask 500 questions about anything I hear that differs to my own findings, not to tread on toes, I'm no ego tripper I don't care when I'm wrong, but because I like to get as many facts as I can. Thats why I kept pressing for details like how long, what motors and under what conditions.

I can't say I know why I haven't had any problems, I just do all the normal checks and make sure everything is clean enough to eat off. The motors I have done are far from 115hp race motors, I have a couple of warm road cars but thats the upper limit at the moment. Two of the last three are just boring ol' daily drivers. Look, not to flog a dead horse of an idea but is there the possibility the quality may have just improved over the last couple of years? I have no other explanation why everyone else is having problems but me. I'm doing another motor in the next month or so, so I'll give a BK450 a go.

Thanks again Graham and everyone else for your thoughts and input. Certainly all well noted.

PS.. I hear that, I'm still getting the hang of computers and typing!! I'm so slow at it compared to some

Kind regards


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:04 pm 
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1098cc
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:40 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: wasleys S.A.
GR wrote:
Hi Phat Kat
We can all learn from each other as no body is a expert im
far from it i listen to people be it from a 15 year old kid to
some body from the other side, i like to think i can something
new every day, thats why i have cups of tea/coffee with every
body you would be surprised what you can learn over a cuppa
I wish i could learn to type faster.
Graham Russell


43 beans in every cup and 43 cups a day :D

Phat Kat as Doc said some of us do our own machining so we know that everything is spot on.
Just a side note,when I did by first honda head I used a copper gasket that was specially made . It blew as soon as I had load on the engine.
I then machined the block and skimmed the head and then blued/ hand scraped the head/block. I used another gasket and this one held for a while but it too leaked.
All I now use is a alumin sheet with "O"ring water seals and copper fire rings. Some of the fire rings I have re-used quite a few times after annealing. I have never had one leak .
I think the problem with the new type of copper gasket is the material around the cylinder is not annealed and is too hard for a good compression seal. The core material is a refactory compound/fiberglass and again that does not compress well.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:13 am 
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1098cc
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Thanks David

ahhhh, so thats what they use in them now. I'm starting to get the impression a little bit that you guys would just like me to say "oh your right, my head gaskets are blown and I haven't noticed because I'm as thick as I am inquisitive" :lol: :lol: :lol: (thats a joke)

Look seriously tho I'm starting to get to a point where I'm going to take one of my fully functioning copper head gasket equiped motors to GR just so that he can see it, dyno it and prove that I'm not full of $h!t cos no one seems to believe me when I say that, ok you guys have had problems but mine are working fine. I'm not saying that you guys didn't have problems but I'm starting to ask

1. Why are mine still working

2. If they are so bad why haven't they been pulled by consumer affairs or fair trading, if a product fails to perform as described in this country it is deemed to be not of merchantable quality and the company selling them cops a fine and is forced to stop selling them. This isn't the UK, the authorities over here have... well .. authority.

I really do thank you David and everyone else for your input and for sharing the problems you faced, but I have 3 cars at the moment sitting down there in the shed equiped with copper head gaskets. 1 has done 15,000km, 1 has done 8,000 km and one admittedly only has about 900km so that one is still a maybe apparently questionable so I'll see how it goes.

But really I BELIEVE YOU, you guys have had motors with copper gaskets that have blown for seemingly no good reason. I am glad that I got the chance to hear about the problems you guys have had because that way when or if I do have a problem it narrows th check list and investigation.

I'm glad that you have all taken time to post your findings, I appreciate that you guys care so much and are passionate enough and good enough people to keep pushing a point to stop a fellow enthusist from running into trouble. It speaks volumes about the moral fibre of this chat room and the mini community. I'm flattered that some of the most respected people in this game have taken time to try to "re educate" me. I have already said that I'm going to try a BK450 on the next motor I do which should be in about a month. BUT IT DOESN"T CHANGE THE FACT THAT I HAVE 3 MOTORS WITH COPPER HEAD GASKETS BUILT IN THE LAST 12-14 MONTHS THAT HAVE NOT BLOWN HEAD GASKETS.

Guys I don't want to look agro or anything here but what part of the above isn't making sense? I'm not going to tell anyone else to use them cos apparently I'm not fit to as It seems I wouldn't even know If I'd blown a head gasket, I should encorage others not to have a go, not to ask questions and not to question answers. Cos that's exactly how society moves forward, by carrying on like Idol worshipping morons that take everything on face value, and just except it when someone tells them that the sky is purple and that their eyes are lying to them.

I might not be a well known engineer, I may not have rubbed sholders with david vizard, I may not even be known by you guys [b]BUT I THINK I WOULD KNOW IF MY ENGINE WAS PISSING OUT OIL AND WATER AND OVERHEATING!!!!!!!!!!!
[/b]

I don't mean to snap cos you guys don't deserve that but what the hell is so hard to understand about that?


Last edited by Phat Kat on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:05 am 
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Bimmer Twinky
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Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:36 pm
Posts: 8606
Location: Brisbane
hey Phatkat

I siad that i don`t & never have, had a problem with copper head gaskets,,,
(because i don`t use them)

GR, Doc & David said they have,,, i`m sure there are thousands & thousands of other people who havn`t had a problem with copper head gaskets, just like you,,,

not every copper head gasket user in the world is on this forum so we won`t get a total & accurate ratio of who has blown one, to who hasn`t,,, the guys have just said that they`ve experienced problems with the later ones (no asspestos) not one of them have said that yours is blown,,, nor have they suggested you take them out
settle pettle, it`s all good.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:22 am 
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1098cc
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Thanks TheMiniMan,

yeah look, I would like to apologise to anyone who read what I last wrote and took offence. It was not constructive, and I didn't mean to imply that anyone thought I was an Idoit (although I guess with time we'll see). I wasn't being sarcastic when I was saying thanks to everyone, like I said I decided to come out of the cave and join here to hear from others, and learn from their findings and so that they could learn from mine.

I hear your point loud and clear that not everyone who has used a copper head gasket has posted their thoughts here. I think what probably pushed me to snapping point were the "its ok, you can admit you were wrong" type pep talks I just got, I thought "wrong? the proof is in the pudding, my engines are running fine". I didn't take it the wrong way, i knew what you were getting at guys, and I do enjoy a quallity brainstorm over any coffee (lets face it any excuse for a cuppa is a good one :) ).

I apologise for taking it out of context and implying that you guys were calling me a liar or were trying to restrict any kind of free thought.

Can we get back to having some laughs now?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:41 pm 
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SooperDooperMiniCooper ExpertEngineering
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Its not Ausmini if you're not taking offence, giving reason to be offended, or simply derailing topics off into the weeds ;)

Its good to have intelligent debate, and every now and then a myth gets totally busted out.

Its good to have you on the board Phat Kat.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:44 pm 
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NAV-MAN
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Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:50 am
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Location: Nothern Brisvegas
I had a copper gasket on my 998, it lasted around 20-30k km before blowing out between 1-2. after that was the ACL monotorque which was in the motor for about the same distance with no worries and was only torqued once, yes only once and in one hit, not in steps. worst gasket ive ever gotten off an engine. The easiest was some graphite coated thing for my ea falcon, it just lifted off like it was never torqued up and was there for 100,000 k's of torture over 2 years (cylinder head cracked again).

The workshop that rebuilt my 998 installed all of the gaskets and did the 1st service on it including re-torquing the head so can't say if it was sealed with gasket sealer, but it was a pain to get off the block.
The current gasket is the one you get in the engine rebuild kit from minisport in sa. It has been torqued in 1 go as well and re-torqued after a couple of drives to work which is 20 min each way.

I have never used a sealer on any head gasket I've installed.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Did it look like this NAV?

Image

That was a copper head gasket between 1 & 2 in a 998 after a couple of thousand k's

Have switched to Monotorque which has definitely not been trouble free but the problems haven't been entirely pinned down to the head gaskets.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:50 pm 
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NAV-MAN
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Mister White Keys wrote:
Did it look like this NAV?


very similar, and I stand corrected, it was 3-4

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:56 pm 
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Location: Port Stephens, a little north of Newcastle, Australia
NAV wrote:
Mister White Keys wrote:
Did it look like this NAV?


very similar, and I stand corrected, it was 3-4

Image

So how long did it take to get that bad?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:37 pm 
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MG Rocket wrote:
So how long did it take to get that bad?


It looks worse than it is as the far side is bent up a bit. From first sign to like that was 5 min, i was trying to limp it to a safe place

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:26 am 
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1098cc
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Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:07 pm
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Location: Lemmings, everywhere.
Time to wake this thread up again...

I have 2 BK450 head gaskets in my garage that have blown between cylinders 2&3. I have never had a problem with BK450s in the past and now I have had 2 in a row. The block & head are machined flat and the motor runs 13.1 comp, avgas, max 28deg advance and correct fuel mixtures.

Is there a shitty batch of BK450s being sold at the moment? :cry:

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