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fuel additives
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58736		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Phat Kat [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:  fuel additives
Sooo... has anyone tried anything successfully?

I've heard about mixing Methanol in petrol, ""apparently"" cutting your petrol with 10% meth will give you a 5 RON boost? I'd be inclined to believe it...

Then there is also Acetone which is pretty popular overseas, cutting your petrol with 10% Acetone can ""apparently"" give a boost of 2-3 RON...

And then of course there are off the shelf Octane boosters....

Now, as I understand it... RON is basically a "test to detonation"... I'm not 100% on this,, but putting certain ingredients in petrol can stop it detonating, but not improve the way the fuel burns,, or maybe even make it burn in a less efficient manor than it would have uncut.... (does anyone know if I'm on the right track by suggesting that? )

So has anyone tested any method of boosting octane successfully? Was it using any of the above methods? Did you find that by using a particular method that it had any adverse effects such as increased carbon build ups, decreased engine life etc..?
Author:  Wombat [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
The only reason I have ever put a cup of metho in the tank was to get rid of water in the fuel - water dissolves in metho - metho mixes in petrol - dry fuel
Author:  albino235 [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Phat Kat wrote:
Sooo... has anyone tried anything successfully?

I've heard about mixing Methanol in petrol, ""apparently"" cutting your petrol with 10% meth will give you a 5 RON boost? I'd be inclined to believe it...


Well metho is essentially ethanol with a bit of methanol added to stop people drinking it, so just buy a ethanol blend :lol:
Ethanol has a higher octane than most pump fuels but also has less energy per gram and therefore everything else equal it will give you less power than standard pump fuel.

My understanding of an octane number is that it relates to the speed at which the fuel burns and not to the power potential of the fuel. It directly relates to the knocking characteristics of the fuel, therefore the engine CR should be matched to the fuel or vise versa and so there is not much point uping the octane over what is required.

So making your own fuel blends is probably not going to achieve much, but if you were going to I'd probably suggest that you look at toluene which is commonly found in paint thinners. The F1 teams used to run on very high toluene content fuels.
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
The F1 teams didn't use as much toluene as the myths claim. Toluene can be used up to a certain level but percentage wise the more you add the less increase you get from it.

Most unleaded fuels these days contain toluene, you can smell it when the car is cold. It has been used as a fuel additive for years (it is also known as Toluol and Methyl Benzine...
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At one stage when I was racing I had a back door deal with Ampol and they gave me this chart which shows how much increase you get when adding toluene to the petrols of the day...
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Author:  Tombo [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
albino235 wrote:
My understanding of an octane number is that it relates to the speed at which the fuel burns and not to the power potential of the fuel. It directly relates to the knocking characteristics of the fuel, therefore the engine CR should be matched to the fuel or vise versa and so there is not much point uping the octane over what is required.

Thats what i have learnt too, it's why some cars ping on lower octane fuels.
Self tuning cars benefit from high octane fuels cos the computer adapts to suit the fuel. So if you increase the octane you need to tune (dyno) the engine to match to get the benefits.
Author:  Phat Kat [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Morris, thats some pretty interesting info... Did you find that adding toluene had any negative side effects?----How the hell did you strike up that kind of deal with Ampol you lucky bastard!? It promts me to ask the question... Its obvious that you had some "history" with our mutual ""friend"" :roll: Mr Gulson, and I've seen you mention your racing history a few times too... May I be so bold as to ask what your racing back ground is/was? It sounds pretty interesting...

albino235 wrote:
My understanding of an octane number is that it relates to the speed at which the fuel burns and not to the power potential of the fuel. It directly relates to the knocking characteristics of the fuel, therefore the engine CR should be matched to the fuel or vise versa and so there is not much point uping the octane over what is required.


Yeah, thats what/how I understand Octane aswell Albino,, it relates to not just to heat but how long it burns for... and not a direct indication as to how much power you will get out of the fuel,,, its more a case of being able to wind up your timing that little bit extra bit to get the most out of it and also being able to utlise a higher CR,,, and of course just the fuel alone won't make a difference, its gotta be a good combo of dynamic compression ratio, timing, and fuel (and obviously in dynamic CR cam timing too)...

Now you can (I'm 99.9% sure) add stuff into fuel to stop a motor pinging with out improving the way that the fuel burns,,, I'm not really out for an RON or MON reading for that reason (because it I don't really think it is a true representation of how efficiently fuel burns more just that It won't ping till the CR is ramped up to figure X.),,, I'm more just proof that some of these additives might assist in producing better power figures...
Author:  Tombo [ Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
I used a wynns octane booster going to Hay last year in my outback, meant to add 8 points.
Heres the average numbers towing a heavy trailer with mini at 110 in 4th not using cruise.
PULP (98) 12.5L per 100ks
ULP (91) 18L per 100ks
PULP +additive, no better than PULP, i may have gotten a crap batch of fuel, but there was no improvment.

My home made trailer has averaged better so far, big test for next year.
Author:  BALLISTIC [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:03 am ]
Post subject: 
Tombo wrote:
My home made trailer has averaged better so far, big test for next year.


:? Why are you coming down to Tassie for the "Two Headed Tassie Tour" :?: :D 8)
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Phat Kat wrote:
Thanks Morris, thats some pretty interesting info... Did you find that adding toluene had any negative side effects?----How the hell did you strike up that kind of deal with Ampol you lucky bastard!? It promts me to ask the question... Its obvious that you had some "history" with our mutual ""friend"" :roll: Mr ******, and I've seen you mention your racing history a few times too... May I be so bold as to ask what your racing back ground is/was? It sounds pretty interesting...

I only ever used the free toluene in the F100 tow car as the class I was in at the time required pump fuel and they used to take fuel samples at random meetings. The F100 used to ping on city grade super petrol so five litres of toluene used to stop the ping. :lol:
I never actually had anything to to with Mr ****** but his reputation preceded him. I did pit crew for his brother and nephew at a meeting once. :lol:

Phat Kat wrote:
albino235 wrote:
My understanding of an octane number is that it relates to the speed at which the fuel burns and not to the power potential of the fuel. It directly relates to the knocking characteristics of the fuel, therefore the engine CR should be matched to the fuel or vise versa and so there is not much point uping the octane over what is required.


Yeah, thats what/how I understand Octane aswell Albino,, it relates to not just to heat but how long it burns for... and not a direct indication as to how much power you will get out of the fuel,,, its more a case of being able to wind up your timing that little bit extra bit to get the most out of it and also being able to utlise a higher CR,,, and of course just the fuel alone won't make a difference, its gotta be a good combo of dynamic compression ratio, timing, and fuel (and obviously in dynamic CR cam timing too)...

Now you can (I'm 99.9% sure) add stuff into fuel to stop a motor pinging with out improving the way that the fuel burns,,, I'm not really out for an RON or MON reading for that reason (because it I don't really think it is a true representation of how efficiently fuel burns more just that It won't ping till the CR is ramped up to figure X.),,, I'm more just proof that some of these additives might assist in producing better power figures...

The octane number is a measurement of resistance to detonation. It is nothing more and nothing less.
The MON and RON are two different systems for working out the resistance to detonation. (MON = Motor Octane Number, RON = Research Octane Number) Both systems work but everyone always always follows the higher number (penis measuring contest)
There is more energy in some lower octane fuels but they detonate (ping) in high compression engines.
When I was racing the HQ Holden we originally had to run on Super petrol which had an octane of about 97. We had detonation problems due to running very high compression. It was a juggling act to keep the pistons in the thing! So after a couple of years when Super was going to be phased out we were allowed to run Avgas. There is a lot of myths about Avgas. All it is is 100 octane petrol. It is not rocket fuel. (rocket fuel is actually the hardner used in most types of plastic bodyfiller! :lol: )
So when we could run Avgas our detonation problems were over, until we decked the block and head and bumped the compression up a couple of points! :lol:
Author:  drmini in aust [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 5:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
I ran 1/4 tank of BP Ultimate 98 with some NOS octane booster in the 1310 (11:1/C/R then) at a Wakefield Park track day.
It didn't run real good that day.
When I got back to Marulan I filled the tank with Ultimate 98 and it ran so much better on the way home. :P

Octane boosters in a bottle are rubbish, IMO. Adding Toluene (aka Toluol, or Methyl Benzene) works so much better. Pity it's a well known carcinogen......:roll:
Author:  GT mowog [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
drmini in aust wrote:
Adding Toluene (aka Toluol, or Methyl Benzene) works so much better. Pity it's a well known carcinogen......:roll:


Yes, but at least your pistons survive! :lol: :lol:
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
GT mowog wrote:
drmini in aust wrote:
Adding Toluene (aka Toluol, or Methyl Benzene) works so much better. Pity it's a well known carcinogen......:roll:


Yes, but at least your pistons survive! :lol: :lol:
It may be a carcinogen and everyone gets bent out of shape when it is used in petrol but it seems nobody cares when it is used as paint thinners. :lol:

The Caltex regular unleaded fuel that I am running in my Morris and my wifes Telstar has a fair amount of toluene in it, it smells like paint thinners when the car is cold. :lol:
Author:  Phat Kat [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Morris 1100 wrote:
GT mowog wrote:
drmini in aust wrote:
Adding Toluene (aka Toluol, or Methyl Benzene) works so much better. Pity it's a well known carcinogen......:roll:


Yes, but at least your pistons survive! :lol: :lol:
It may be a carcinogen and everyone gets bent out of shape when it is used in petrol but it seems nobody cares when it is used as paint thinners. :lol:


:shock: whhhhhhhaaaaaaaat???

they didn't tell us that at TAFE?

Hmmmm,,,, I'm gana sus out how much Toluene is actually in thinners... could be just the thing for those extra 5 points :D :D :D
Author:  drmini in aust [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Don't you remember a few years ago, in Sydney, smartie discount petrol sellers were putting paint thinners in petrol to save $$$. Because there was no excise on it...
The Gummint moved quick smart. It now cops excise in the price, unless sold bulk for painting use and a stack of forms submitted.
Author:  Phat Kat [ Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
okkie dokkie,,

According to the MSDS availble for Multipurpose thinners, it has Toluene, Acetone, Ethyl alcohol and Light Aliphatic Petroleum Solvent.....

Kiddies,, I'm going to the moon!!!!

Oh hold on a sec... the problem with paint thinners is the inconsistancies... the tolerances are as much as 30% for each of the Ingredients... BASTARDS
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