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Drive shaft too short on LH side! (Pot joint type)
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Author:  MattE [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Drive shaft too short on LH side! (Pot joint type)
Folks,
The left hand pot joint on my car is slipping - the balls and race are so far out of the pot that they spin, so somehow the drive shaft is too short.... but first a bit of background.
The car has metro hubs, and what I thought were standard pot joint drive shafts. The right hand side doesn't slip, but I've not yet pulled the boot back to see how well engaged the balls & race are. The car has been undergoing a full resto, and has only been driven around the block previously (before this problem surfaced. I asked around on one of the UK mini forums (turbominis), and nobody had heard of a short driveshaft problem, even when using metro hubs. I've checked that the square section clip is in place on the cv joint end, and the drive shaft is the same length as my two spare LH drive shafts (373mm).

Can anyone shed any light, or provide a measured length for a LH pot joint drive shaft?

This is a strange one, and I'm reluctant to change over to mini disc brake hubs, or get custom drive shafts made up....

Could I have an odd CV joint or pot joint?

I'll try to supply a photo to illustrate the problem later...

Many thanks.
Matt
Author:  mini maxx [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
i watched your thread on Turbomini, im suprised they didnt have any solutions, perhaps a few Aussies can set you straight....not me though :lol:
Author:  GT mowog [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:26 pm ]
Post subject: 
Have you check the condition of your lower arm rubbers? Also, have you got negitive camber or adjustable lower arms?

From memory, when you put the metro hubs in, you need to lengthen the lower arms to get the camber somewhere close to where it should be, and I suspect that this is the problem. It's also worse if the car is sitting on the high side.

I'm also sorry to say that the metro hubs have the wrong king pin inclination for a mini or a moke, so I would suggest getting a hold of some suitable mini ones.
Author:  BALLISTIC [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
What gearbox is it?
rod change from an A-plus with A- plus pots?
What are you refering to as Metro hubs?
are the brakes 8.4 with 4 spot calipers or just the std 2 pot calipers.....

i have(had .... car in pieces at the moment) 8.4 metro turbo 4 spot calipers and pot joints (early type) on mine with std lower arms but have adjustable castor rods, yes it has plenty of neg camber (the way I like it :D ) but I have not experienced this problem you are talking about.......
early type pot joints and ball and race are smaller than A-plus type pot joints, ball and race and are not interchangable could this be your problem?
have you been able to check where the ball and races sit when the front end is under vehicle load weight?
I have some spare A-plus drive shafts somewhere and will check the length if you like....just need to know where you are measuring from
Author:  GT mowog [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
BALLISTIC wrote:
early type pot joints and ball and race are smaller than A-plus type pot joints, ball and race and are not interchangable could this be your problem?

I have some spare A-plus drive shafts somewhere and will check the length if you like....just need to know where you are measuring from


I've actually found that there were 2 'types' of pot joints fitted as you say here Scott, big and small ID howver I have found them on late and early cars. I guess that there were 2 manufacturers of these little jems and as you say they are not inter-changable.

I haven't come across A+ drive shafts (for minis). How are they different?

I know that the Metro ones are long, but only because the track is wider.
Author:  BALLISTIC [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
GT mowog wrote:
BALLISTIC wrote:
early type pot joints and ball and race are smaller than A-plus type pot joints, ball and race and are not interchangable could this be your problem?

I have some spare A-plus drive shafts somewhere and will check the length if you like....just need to know where you are measuring from


I've actually found that there were 2 'types' of pot joints fitted as you say here Scott, big and small ID howver I have found them on late and early cars. I guess that there were 2 manufacturers of these little jems and as you say they are not inter-changable.

I haven't come across A+ drive shafts (for minis). How are they different?

I know that the Metro ones are long, but only because the track is wider.


I have found that the pots etc from A-plus (80's +)engines are of the larger diameter and the ones from leyland (70's) minis are a smaller diameter.
I dont think the drive shafts do differ from early to late that much(maybe a mm or 3), the only thing I can think he has done is to put 2 short d/shafts in or forgot the tapered drive flange spacer.
Author:  Asphalt [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm not sure; but didn't the lenght of the actuall shaft differ between the types of CV (rubber/uni/pot) used?


Also; LH side in driving direction? (I'm asking because it wouldn't be the first time it cause confusion :))
Author:  GT mowog [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for that on the Drive Shafts. Yes, it's a bit hard to 'know' (guess??) what he's done without a pic.

I did some 20 years ago have similar trouble with my Moke, that ran standard disc brake hubs, however I had jacked it up very high, so to get the camber back, I put adjustable lower arms in and I did find that sometimes the RH (I think) pot joint would occationally slip out and then slip back in again - at least it saved getting dirty hands!
Author:  MattE [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
>What gearbox is it?

A+ - it came with my Metro Turbo engine.

>with A- plus pots?

One of the pots is brand new, bought as GCV1102 (ADU4378). Not having a problem with this side, but haven't pulled back the boot to check it out. The other pot is from an Aussie clubman.

>What are you refering to as Metro hubs? are the brakes 8.4 with 4 spot calipers or just the std 2 pot calipers.....

The hubs have screw in, sealed ball joints to suit the mini arm taper. Four pot, vented brakes.

>early type pot joints and ball and race are smaller than A-plus type pot joints, ball and race and are not interchangable could this be your problem?

Hmmm - that could be the problem - but to confirm, are you saying that replacement pot joints will be longer than what came on the Aussie Clubmans?

>have you been able to check where the ball and races sit when the front >end is under vehicle load weight?

Image

Image

Image

>I have some spare A-plus drive shafts somewhere and will check the >length if you like....just need to know where you are measuring >from[/quote]

LH (the one I'm trying to fit to the passenger side!) bare shaft, no knuckle or joint attached is 373mm.
Author:  GT mowog [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the pics MattE. That pot joint (pot roast?) is well out by about 30 to 40 mm. How high or low have you got your suspension set? Yes, the hubs you have are Metro ones.

Has the drive shaft been previously modofied or a custom? You might need to get a hold of another one to check it against.

EDIT> Also might be worther checking the outboard CV to see if it has been ground.
Author:  MattE [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
>Thanks for the pics MattE. That pot joint (pot roast?) is well out by about 30 >to 40 mm. How high or low have you got your suspension set? Yes, the >hubs you have are Metro ones.

In rough terms, I agree. I think it's about 25-30mm from where it needs to be...

The suspension is set to give 100mm ground clearance to pass rego. So it's not ultra low.... but in the photo, I've jacked up the lower arm until the subframe lifts off the jack stand, to simulate something in between a resting hieght and having the suspension under compression.

>Has the drive shaft been previously modofied or a custom? You might need >to get a hold of another one to check it against.[/quote]

I checked against two others I have here - all three are visually identical.
Author:  BALLISTIC [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Asphalt wrote:
I'm not sure; but didn't the lenght of the actuall shaft differ between the types of CV (rubber/uni/pot) used?


Also; LH side in driving direction? (I'm asking because it wouldn't be the first time it cause confusion :))


Yes the shafts did differ slighty from memory (rubber/uni/pot)
Yes aussie left hand side = passenger side or near side (i think)

MattE have you checked the length between the left and right d/shafts you have in the car, are they both of equal length :?:
! have these brakes and hubs in my car with leyland pot joints and have had no trouble, they stop really well :!:
Author:  drmini in aust [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
As said the LH one is shorter.
The pot joint shafts are longer than the rubber U/J or H/S joint ones, and the inner end is different.
Author:  Harley [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whats the length difference in shafts from left to right?
Could he just try a longer one and see what happens?
Author:  MattE [ Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:14 pm ]
Post subject: 
[quote="Harley"]Whats the length difference in shafts from left to right?

I'm guessing three inches... I'm almost certain the hub wouldn't go back on...

Cheers
Matt
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