ausmini :: View topic - Hydrolastic Helper Springs

Hydro has always sagged at the back. Much more than what I have seen on other cars. Everytime I get Kev to pump up the hydro, the back looks like it's very very high and the front is 3-4 fingerd only. I think it's old tired springs.

Second hand springs, am I only looking for more trouble??

What about a modern solution like coil over springs? surely you can fit adjustable coilovers to prevent movement either way?? has anyone tried this? looked into this?

Surely someone on Ausmini has replaced their rear hydro helper springs before? they're over 41yrs old now, I think they need to be retired...

PS. Don't get me wrong I like the hydro and not proposing to change to dry, I am worried that too much front end sag will be bad in fast corners under breaking? she does feel abit light in that situation

Mini K had 4 bags AYA4090, but I don't think the hydro bags need to be a `matched set'- throughout the hydro era, various bag combinations were fitted to the Cooper S by the factory. They were not all front/rear = same.
I've run `71 GT front bags and `70 Minimatic rears for the last 15 years, it's not saggy one end or the other and the helper springs are originals.

If your Knuckles, bushes, pins and bearings (in the suspension arms) are all good order, then usually a spacer washer of 0.100" or 0.120" between the front hydro bag and the knuckle joint will work wonders.

Hi GT Mowog,
Excellent stuff. What I have also found with S displacers is the addition of extra rubber in item #2. It achieve the required ride height, it takes more system pressure and provides a stiffer ride.

Regards
Al

GT mowog wrote:

Sorry I can't picture in my (tiny) head what you are referring to here? Where does the spacer washer go exactly? Above, below or inside the hydro bag?

Author:	Lillee [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:25 am ]
Post subject:	Hydrolastic Helper Springs
I consulted the good doctor and he said to take one to a spring manufacturer to get them made. Not to say that I don't believe him but I sort of need a better solution than that as that would mean Lillee will be off the road while I fart around trying to manufacture a new spring. So help me out, I Lillee is in need of new springs, what can I do??

Author:	drmini in aust [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:10 am ]
Post subject:
What's wrong with the old springs? If you take them to a real spring maker they could shorten them, if that is the problem. Or, find another pair that are better.

Author:	1310/71 [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:46 am ]
Post subject:
You dare question his diagnosis? Why not pop in a borrowed set whilst you get your new set made. Kings Springs in QLD have a pretty good reputation. KB

Author:	simon k [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:
once apon a time I took some to the spring makers in Wodonga, they said about $100 each - but that may just have been to get me to go away.... trouble is, how do you know what weight to get the new springs made to - when we've only got old springs to work with - that said, it'd be easy to make them adjustable

Author:	Lillee [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:
Hydro has always sagged at the back. Much more than what I have seen on other cars. Everytime I get Kev to pump up the hydro, the back looks like it's very very high and the front is 3-4 fingerd only. I think it's old tired springs. Second hand springs, am I only looking for more trouble?? What about a modern solution like coil over springs? surely you can fit adjustable coilovers to prevent movement either way?? has anyone tried this? looked into this? Surely someone on Ausmini has replaced their rear hydro helper springs before? they're over 41yrs old now, I think they need to be retired... PS. Don't get me wrong I like the hydro and not proposing to change to dry, I am worried that too much front end sag will be bad in fast corners under breaking? she does feel abit light in that situation

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Hydrolastic Helper Springs https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62354	Page 1 of 2

Author:	drmini in aust [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:
These springs are in tension, they pull the back DOWN (and therefore the front up). Coiliovers are compression springs... won't work. Anyway you want the back higher so you can carry more fat chix (or twin tanks full of fuel, kids, etc). I'll lend you another (good) pair of orange ones but I want em back...

Author:	GT mowog [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:
Lillee wrote: Hydro has always sagged at the back. Much more than what I have seen on other cars. Everytime I get Kev to pump up the hydro, the back looks like it's very very high and the front is 3-4 fingerd only. I think it's old tired springs. Second hand springs, am I only looking for more trouble?? What about a modern solution like coil over springs? surely you can fit adjustable coilovers to prevent movement either way?? has anyone tried this? looked into this? Surely someone on Ausmini has replaced their rear hydro helper springs before? they're over 41yrs old now, I think they need to be retired... PS. Don't get me wrong I like the hydro and not proposing to change to dry, I am worried that too much front end sag will be bad in fast corners under breaking? she does feel abit light in that situation If your Knuckles, bushes, pins and bearings (in the suspension arms) are all good order, then usually a spacer washer of 0.100" or 0.120" between the front hydro bag and the knuckle joint will work wonders. Or you could machine a little off each hydro strut in the rear. Have you checked that the hydro bags are a matched set?

Author:	850man [ Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:
[/quote]If your Knuckles, bushes, pins and bearings (in the suspension arms) are all good order, then usually a spacer washer of 0.100" or 0.120" between the front hydro bag and the knuckle joint will work wonders. Or you could machine a little off each hydro strut in the rear. Have you checked that the hydro bags are a matched set?[/quote] Good advice. A spacer between the ball & cup and the hydro bag works wonders, I have done it many times. I have only had to ever replace 1 or 2 broken hydro springs ever. I have never seen or ever had to replace a spring because it has lost its spring. And there has allways been a box of 100 spares to choose from, surly there not that rare, I can even place one being used as a gate closer!

Author:	GT mowog [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:00 am ]
Post subject:
850man wrote: If your Knuckles, bushes, pins and bearings (in the suspension arms) are all good order, then usually a spacer washer of 0.100" or 0.120" between the front hydro bag and the knuckle joint will work wonders. Or you could machine a little off each hydro strut in the rear. Have you checked that the hydro bags are a matched set?[/quote] Good advice. A spacer between the ball & cup and the hydro bag works wonders, I have done it many times. I have only had to ever replace 1 or 2 broken hydro springs ever. I have never seen or ever had to replace a spring because it has lost its spring. And there has allways been a box of 100 spares to choose from, surly there not that rare, I can even place one being used as a gate closer![/quote] (Thanks there 850man ). Another 'fix' that I only just remembered that I did once was to swap the front and rear hydro bags (ie put the front ones in the back and back ones in the front). It's a bigger job though. (Hmmmm....is it just my PC or are the quotes also playing up?)

Author:	drmini in aust [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:34 am ]
Post subject:
Mini K had 4 bags AYA4090, but I don't think the hydro bags need to be a `matched set'- throughout the hydro era, various bag combinations were fitted to the Cooper S by the factory. They were not all front/rear = same. I've run `71 GT front bags and `70 Minimatic rears for the last 15 years, it's not saggy one end or the other and the helper springs are originals.

Author:	GT mowog [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:38 am ]
Post subject:
drmini in aust wrote: Mini K had 4 bags AYA4090, but I don't think the hydro bags need to be a `matched set'- throughout the hydro era, various bag combinations were fitted to the Cooper S by the factory. They were not all front/rear = same. I've run `71 GT front bags and `70 Minimatic rears for the last 15 years, it's not saggy one end or the other and the helper springs are originals. I would say a fairly cautious yes, it could be done. I say up front, I have not done it. The Hydrolastic Displacer Unit;- By gtmowog Item 2 is a rubber spring and item 6 is the damper valve (shock absorber). It is these two items which make for Soft, Normal, Stiff or Very Stiff Hyrodrolastic Suspension. The Rubber Springs so affect ride height, as does many other componets of this wonderous system. So I would say, if I were to mix and match different rate Hydro Bags, then I would be putting stiffer ones in the front than in the rear, just as you have done. If the were stiff ones in the rear and soft in the front, it could cause the rear to ride very high compared to the front. This could be - could be - a cause of the problem that Lillee has with his Mini. <EDIT> The Early RED displacers had a 'built in' spacer of 0.180", so again would be fairly important not to mix these with others. If you were to mix and match displacers, I would again suggest caution.

Author:	66S [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:15 am ]
Post subject:
Hi GT Mowog, Excellent stuff. What I have also found with S displacers is the addition of extra rubber in item #2. It achieve the required ride height, it takes more system pressure and provides a stiffer ride. Regards Al

Author:	Lillee [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:58 am ]
Post subject:
GT mowog wrote: If your Knuckles, bushes, pins and bearings (in the suspension arms) are all good order, then usually a spacer washer of 0.100" or 0.120" between the front hydro bag and the knuckle joint will work wonders. Sorry I can't picture in my (tiny) head what you are referring to here? Where does the spacer washer go exactly? Above, below or inside the hydro bag?

Author:	GT mowog [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:
66S wrote: Hi GT Mowog, Excellent stuff. What I have also found with S displacers is the addition of extra rubber in item #2. It achieve the required ride height, it takes more system pressure and provides a stiffer ride. Regards Al Thanks 66S, some more useful info. I have not had any displacers to sacrifice, but that all does make a lot of sence. They would have more rubber in them to make them stiffer. The spring at the rear is only a 'helper' spring. Noted too that factory cars there where sold new with dry and then wet suspension, that the wet cars are some 58kG heavier Getting back to Lillee's problem / fix, instead of using spacer washers, there is a 'extended' factory Knuckle Joint that is a little higher than a 'standard' one. They fitted these in to the front of late Rover Minis (~90 on?) to help hold up the front with all the extra crap in them. From memory, they are an extra 0.150" higher than the 'standard' ones AND then if you really need to you can safely pack these a further 0.150"

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Author:	GT mowog [ Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:
Lillee wrote: GT mowog wrote: If your Knuckles, bushes, pins and bearings (in the suspension arms) are all good order, then usually a spacer washer of 0.100" or 0.120" between the front hydro bag and the knuckle joint will work wonders. Sorry I can't picture in my (tiny) head what you are referring to here? Where does the spacer washer go exactly? Above, below or inside the hydro bag? It fits between the Hydro Bag and the Knuckle Joint. It's a crappy pic, but's its all I have to hand;- By gtmowog The O ring looking thing is the washer.