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Welding help.... Moke
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69314		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  IwannaMini [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Welding help.... Moke
Hey guys... I thought i would ask here before taking my car to a shop somewhere...

I have just purchased a hard top roof for my moke (no comments please... i wanted one and although its not everyone's cup of tea, its what i wanted....) however because of the centre piece of the roll bar, it will not fit. It will fit if the middle bar is cut and replaced at the top most part of the side bars... refer my super quick pictorial explanation and pics...

Image

Pic of Moke Bar from back
Image

Pic of Moke Bar from front
Image

Is there anyone on here in Sydney that can do this for me for a few bucks on the side? It doesnt have to be pretty, just solid.

That aside, does anyone think this will destroy the structural integrity of the roll bar??
Author:  Davo111 [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Any thing that is designed to support weight should never be cut and welded, "Moke upside down" it loses its integrity, :shock:

but the correct way to do it, would be to cut off the 2 top braces coming in from the rear and then remove the required length off the bottom of the uprights and then weld the top back in position, that would be the strongest and safest way to go about it.
8) 8)
But, if you don't care about losing your head, weld a piece across where you want it and then cut off the excess with a grinder. :roll: :roll:

My 10c worth, but I feel that there will be more suggestions to come :wink:
Author:  1962CKD [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Bitsa
If you're going to get an engineering workshop to do the work, get another hoop bent to replace the higher one. Doing it your self, you could detach the hoop and lower it by cutting down the legs then re attach (or get a new hoop to size) use a tube in tube strengthening if you're going to cut mid length.

Consider:

Seat Belts loading and compliance will be affected if you cut and shut.

Your head may get into striking distance if you lower the hoop. Roll bar always wins in that type of collision padding or no padding.

Consider a seat replacement that has integrated belts (BMW850i for example) and run with swappable cage or hard top

PS: DAVO111 - our Collins class subs are welded, and with the unexpected short life on their battery packs, the hull needs to be cut in half to replace the batteries then welded back up. It's a matter of how good the welder is and can they meet any specified standards.

Our problem is not finding a good enough welder it's finding true specification from the vehicle and roads departments.
Author:  IwannaMini [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bitsa
Davo111 wrote:
Any thing that is designed to support weight should never be cut and welded, "Moke upside down" it loses its integrity, :shock:


At the end of the day we are talking about a Moke. If its upside down, i think i have more things to worry about than the strength of the bar that goes across the roll cage...!!!

1962CKD wrote:
Consider: Seat Belts loading and compliance will be affected if you cut and shut. Your head may get into striking distance if you lower the hoop. Consider a seat replacement that has integrated belts (BMW850i for example) and run with swappable cage or hard top


RE seat belts, I didnt think of that, but i would have thought more of their strength would have come from the rear pillar of the roll cage rather than the cross bar.
RE head vs striking distance... i am too short to hit my head unless for some reason i am being thrown upwards about 5 or 6 inches. As above... if that is happening, i think I have more pressingthings to be worried about
RE replacing the seats and/or cage.... i woudl probably want to keep the seats... is there a different roll cage for the moke that would use the existing mount points?? That might be a good alternative to what I am trying to do.
Author:  Monster Mini [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
marcello i would look out for a smaller roll bar i think it may be the easier way out .... and there are sooooo many different types.... there will be one that should bolt stright on....
Author:  GT mowog [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Your roll bar is a factory fitted one from 80 on Californian. The basic model (yes, there is a more basic moke) did not get them.

They are nothing fancy in terms of steel grade or design, in fact they were made from HD Exhaust Pipe. Same too as the front & rear 'Californian Bars'. Also, as far as being a roll bar, they lack a diagonal brace, so how effective would it be? Now I know this sounds negitive, but I will also say that all things considered, they do work well and better than none at all.

Now, back to the problem at hand. Yes I would be happy to cut and shut it, however, I would insert an inner sleave (another tube inside the existing) at any joints and make these at least 300 mm long. It might mean removing the top mount for the seat belt, fitting the tube, welding and then refitting the mount. Also, retain the original bends, don't try to mitre joint it. Lastly, be sure that who ever does the welding is a qualified welder. Maybe the Doc could help out here?
Author:  Angusdog [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
GT mowog wrote:
Now I know this sounds negitive, but I will also say that all things considered, they do work well and better than none at all.


Hmmm. I'd say other than somewhere to hand the seatbelts from, they do nothing apart from provide a false sense of security. Exhaust pipe? Oh, dear. It would be fair cheap (since it doesn't need to fit tight against bodywork and access is world class...) to get a chromoly one made (get two made, sell the second to offset the cost) with a diagonal brace. Ditch the rear seats since it would be criminally negligent to allow people to travel back there.

Which is probably even harsher than your post, but it's what I would do.

Having said that, there's nothing substantial to attach it to. Large spreader plates? I don't know, but whoever makes the new cage may have some ideas.
Author:  GT mowog [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
Angusdog wrote:

Having said that, there's nothing substantial to attach it to. Large spreader plates? I don't know, but whoever makes the new cage may have some ideas.


Since you raise this, I'll elaborate a little more on it......

Moke's un-like Mini's have very very poor tortional stiffness, about as much as a sheet of wet paper in fact. Some actually fit 6 point cages to give them some stiffness, but they find before too long (maybe a year or two) that the bodies crack around the mounting points and increasing the the area only moves the crack somewhere else.......
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
They are not really a roll bar, they are a seat belt mount.

I am not too sure about the legality of modifying a seat belt mount. Better make it look good if you do it!

Better idea, sell it and buy a motorbike, much safer. :lol:
Author:  adamstuart [ Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:50 pm ]
Post subject: 
Morris 1100 wrote:
They are not really a roll bar, they are a seat belt mount.

I am not too sure about the legality of modifying a seat belt mount. Better make it look good if you do it!

Better idea, sell it and buy a motorbike, much safer. :lol:


Helmets are compulsory on a bike ;)

that's why im building a little wheeler moke with lowbacks, lap sashes and no roll bar. But it has discs ;)
Author:  IwannaMini [ Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:19 am ]
Post subject: 
EXHAUST PIPE..!!! :shock:

I also have 3 mount point harnesses in the garage... I might just remove the cage and existing seat belts, install the harnesses using the existing mount points on either side of the front seats and the rear seat belt mount at the back and then just throw the roof on over the top....

I didnt think this would be such a dilemma.!! haha.

Oh and RE getting a motorbike, after nearly killing myself on the first one i wrecked and then almost being killed on my second bigger, faster, more powerful one.... the missus said NO to any more bikes.
Author:  drmini in aust [ Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
IwannaMini wrote:
EXHAUST PIPE..!!! :shock:


Well, it is a BIT thicker than the 1.6mm wall thickness of yer usual zorst pipe mate.. :lol:
Not seen one to measure lately but I'd guess it's around 2.5mm wall.
It would last longer than aluminium, in a rollover.
Author:  IwannaMini [ Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:13 am ]
Post subject: 
drmini in aust wrote:
...in a rollover.


Kev, you have seen me drive.... I cant see any way for me to roll this thing over.!!
Author:  mattsmadmini [ Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:18 am ]
Post subject: 
IwannaMini wrote:
drmini in aust wrote:
...in a rollover.


Kev, you have seen me drive.... I cant see any way for me to roll this thing over.!!


Thats what Adam reckons also.... but ive already got dibs on his twinky motor in the (un)fortunate occurance that he is in a roll over (he wont have a roll bar you see...) :lol:

Just make one up if its annoying you so much!

or NOT have a hardtop.... :P
Author:  IwannaMini [ Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Well the roll cage got removed last night in preparation for this weekends epic adventure. I cant believe that the cage is held onto 2mm body metal with NO backing plates with screws 4cm long and less than 1cm thick!!! (not sure if this is like this on all mokes or just mine)

It turns out that the join for the top bar on the passenger side had cracked 3/4 of the way around and the only thing stopping the thing cracking all the way was the pressure of the back mount pushing forward.

so....... looks like its off to Bond Roll Bars to get something fabricated in the not too distant future.... :wink:
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