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Engine turning over slowly - And other difficulties
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Author:  jorgan92 [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:16 am ]
Post subject:  Engine turning over slowly - And other difficulties
Hey guys,

I've had a long term mini project on the go for what seems like forever now.

Anyway, the engine in our mini had its sump plug tapped out to a stupidly large size, upon tightening this stupidly large bolt the sump cracked and a large piece of it fell off, so after 3 years of the mini sitting in storage I finally took the engine out and removed the gearbox and got it welded up by a mate.

The engine was then re-assembled and put back into the car. Now when trying to start the car the engine turns over REALLY slow. Like dead battery slow, usually it will do a half a rotation and stop then repeat. So I have done all the logical things, changed battery, changed started motor, changed battery again, then I had a look on the internet and found out a lot of the time its the earthing points, so I cleaned up them, still really slow, same process as before. So I tried changing the earth lead from the engine (it looked a bit worn after 40 odd years) and took out the spark plugs, the car now rotates consistently, but its still too slowly to fathom starting the car, not to mention the absence of spark plugs.

So the next step is for me to borrow a dremel and try and get off any more paint that's on the chassis earthing point, as a wire brush is taking way too long, and hope that some how this mystically solves all my problems (I don't think it will).

So does anyone know of anything else it could be? I'm no engine expert so there could have been a problem in the assembly of the engine to gearbox (nothing else was taken apart in the top half of the engine) it looked pretty straight forward to me but I could have missed something.

Any help or advise would be greatly appreciated.

Thank-you in advance,

Jordan
Author:  sam_1100 [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Should try push starting it so you know if its a starter or engine problem.
(I take no responsibility for your car getting stuck at the bottom of a hill should it be an engine problem haha)
Author:  Mick [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:05 am ]
Post subject: 
Don't stress too much on the earth leads from the engine, if they're clean and not damaged then that is enough.

How do you know something is not binding within the engine? Can you turn the engine over with the spark plugs out by hand?

Poor brushes or damaged windings in a starter motor can cause low torque, are you certain the starter is known to be good?

What is the battery voltage exactly? Anything less than 13 indicates big problems with the battery capacity to start e em if it doesn't seem much.

Are the posts on the starter solenoid hot as you try to start the engine, this can indicate a problem with the starter.

This may get you off to a running start, have I forgotten anything?
Author:  Convertible Mini [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  AND !
What if the distributor is not timed correctly and the timing is too far advanced, this will give a very similar effect to a crook starter or low battery. What size engine is it ? If this problem did not exist before the engine was taken out for welding of sump it should not exist still unless something has been put back wrongly. Trace back your steps and see what you could have done incorrectly. Swapping starter motors and bits with other "USED" ones could be the introduction of other problems and faults. Proper testing is the best cure. I always preach against guess work. Test, Test and test again.
Author:  Drewie [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:56 am ]
Post subject: 
If and when you have ran out of ideas, maybe another thing to think about is, as you had the box separated from the engine and changed the gasket behind the flywheel housing did you check the end float on the idler gear, maybe the thrust washers on the idler gear are binding. I had an engine built by a well know Mini person many years ago and the end float was checked, there must have been some dodgy gaskets around at the time and on the final assembly the flywheel housing gasket compresed and the idler gear was too tight, it ran but had a horrible intermitent grabbing sound from the clutch area. Pulled the motor out and found the idler gear thrust washers were grinding into the alloy housing. Hope not but something to consider.
Author:  jorgan92 [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:53 am ]
Post subject: 
sam_1100 wrote:
Should try push starting it so you know if its a starter or engine problem.
(I take no responsibility for your car getting stuck at the bottom of a hill should it be an engine problem haha)


I wish I knew the engine was still in running order, then I'd be all for it.

Mick wrote:
Don't stress too much on the earth leads from the engine, if they're clean and not damaged then that is enough.

How do you know something is not binding within the engine? Can you turn the engine over with the spark plugs out by hand?

Poor brushes or damaged windings in a starter motor can cause low torque, are you certain the starter is known to be good?

What is the battery voltage exactly? Anything less than 13 indicates big problems with the battery capacity to start e em if it doesn't seem much.

Are the posts on the starter solenoid hot as you try to start the engine, this can indicate a problem with the starter.

This may get you off to a running start, have I forgotten anything?


Here goes:

Still turned over by hand from memory when it was out of the car. I don't 100% know its not binding with anything, any easy way to check?

The second starter isn't known to be good, I got it from a wrecker in Moorabbin who said he can't load test them, but it should be fine. Again way to check?

The battery is an Optima D34, so should be fine, i will however double check all the voltage levels etc. when I get home. has enough power to start an Escort, but then again its battery isn't in the boot.

The solenoid been that weird clipy thing where the positive comes from? Yes that gets really hot.

Thank you very much for your reply it has given me a few things to check out.

Convertible Mini wrote:
What if the distributor is not timed correctly and the timing is too far advanced, this will give a very similar effect to a crook starter or low battery. What size engine is it ? If this problem did not exist before the engine was taken out for welding of sump it should not exist still unless something has been put back wrongly. Trace back your steps and see what you could have done incorrectly. Swapping starter motors and bits with other "USED" ones could be the introduction of other problems and faults. Proper testing is the best cure. I always preach against guess work. Test, Test and test again.


If I take the distributor our should this eliminate that problem? It's just getting it to turn over properly I'm not even concerned about spark yet.

Yes the Starter Motor was second hand, I thought it would be fine, but maybe I should have sprung for a new one. Didn't want to lash out and spend $179 when I didn't need too. Also apparently mine is a bit different to a standard one so woopy for me.

What size engine is it I have No idea, I tried to identify it ages ago and gave up, any pointers to find out?


Drewie wrote:
If and when you have ran out of ideas, maybe another thing to think about is, as you had the box separated from the engine and changed the gasket behind the flywheel housing did you check the end float on the idler gear, maybe the thrust washers on the idler gear are binding. I had an engine built by a well know Mini person many years ago and the end float was checked, there must have been some dodgy gaskets around at the time and on the final assembly the flywheel housing gasket compresed and the idler gear was too tight, it ran but had a horrible intermitent grabbing sound from the clutch area. Pulled the motor out and found the idler gear thrust washers were grinding into the alloy housing. Hope not but something to consider.


Hmmm yes another thing to consider, I did not check it. Turning over the engine by hand would you be able to hear the noise you are describing?

Honestly Id be happy if that was it, it's not tooooooooo hard to fix, yes its annoying but at least its something.


thank you for all your help guys I'll report back after I start ticking things off the list.
Author:  mmiller6512 [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
On the thrust washer thing i have this problem now with an engine. it seems tighter with the clutch depessed. Might be worth checking.
Good luck.
Author:  69k1100 [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
With the plugs out the engine should turn over by hand fairly easily (firm but not so much that you would need a tool) this is via the crank damper.

Who knows after 3 years mineral oil (if you used it) could have destroyed the bearings. You said the gearbox had crack, did you refill the engine with oil? Seems silly but who knows.

I find it odd that it would turn over continuously with a crook battery (probably turn over a few times then die)

Starters aren't a big deal to change. Are you sure it's in neutral?
Author:  Drewie [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just noticed the motor has been sitting around for 3 years, I don't suppose the bores/rings may have surface rust and the pistons are having trouble moving up and down, maybe with the plugs out squirt some oil in the cylinders and let it soak for a while and try spinning it over again with the plugs out.
Author:  jorgan92 [ Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
69k1100 wrote:
With the plugs out the engine should turn over by hand fairly easily (firm but not so much that you would need a tool) this is via the crank damper.

Who knows after 3 years mineral oil (if you used it) could have destroyed the bearings. You said the gearbox had crack, did you refill the engine with oil? Seems silly but who knows.

I find it odd that it would turn over continuously with a crook battery (probably turn over a few times then die)

Starters aren't a big deal to change. Are you sure it's in neutral?


Engine has oil in it I'm sure of that much :P

Starters aren't hard to change yes, but getting one that works may be more difficult than expected.

And yup, the cars in the air at the moment, defiantly in neutral.

Drewie wrote:
Just noticed the motor has been sitting around for 3 years, I don't suppose the bores/rings may have surface rust and the pistons are having trouble moving up and down, maybe with the plugs out squirt some oil in the cylinders and let it soak for a while and try spinning it over again with the plugs out.


This seems plausible and like a easy and lazy starting place, this is done :P waiting for it to "soak" now.

Also engine number begins with 12H... then possibly a 7

So by this:
http://www.minimania.com/article/1520/E ... ta_UPDATED

Its a 1275cc? Nice :D
Author:  jorgan92 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Okay, so oil was soaked in cylinders and I tried hooking the battery straight up to the starter motor.

It initially sounded promising for about half a second before it went back to its usual self.

I chucked the battery back on charge hoping this was the problem, I can confirm this morning that it's not.

Whilst I was sitting in front on the engine while it was turning over I can hear a weird rubbing noise. Almost sound like rubber on something? Could this be the Idler gear mentioned before? Or is it a noise a starter motor makes?

I tried turning the engine over by hand (no tools as described before) no dice, loosened off the alternator belt to see if that was the problem, sill wont turn over by hand.

I'm guessing it's going to come down to the re-assembly of the engine now hey?
Author:  MiniBill [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Well im new to these things myself , but you did mention that you pulled it apart to get the sump welded by a mate , so im guessing the problem may stem from there , perhaps something not put back right ? or maybe warped by heat from welding ? .

Cheers Bill
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
did you check the thickness of the primary case gasket was the same as the old one???,,,

did you check the idler gear clearance at all???
Author:  jorgan92 [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
TheMiniMan wrote:
did you check the thickness of the primary case gasket was the same as the old one???,,,

did you check the idler gear clearance at all???


Nope :(

Ill take the engine back out and invite the mechanic friend around to re assemble it :P
Author:  michaelb [ Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Maybe if you take the head off you will be able to see if the bores are rusted?
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