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Cooper experts please (not S)
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84212		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  smac [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Cooper experts please (not S)
Got a question on something that's not exactly clear to me from my manual, or from various online sources.

Should a 1964 Cooper (998 I believe) have discs or drums on the front? Some info says "pre '64" up until a certain chassis number are on drums....then elsewhere it says Cooper are on discs......yet I'm looking at a car that seems to be less than that chassis number....so....????? I thought all Cooper were disc (either 7" or 7.5") but was it not a hard and fast rule?

Also, what rims should be on a 64 Cooper? All four the Cooper style? Or I've also heard different front and back because the early disc cars didn't have stepped drums?

Thanks
Author:  Mick [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
All 997 and 998 Coopers wore 7" Discs. None wore drums, or even stepped drums on the rear. The stepped drums were to suit the different offset Cooper S rims, while all 997 and 998 Coopers wore standard 3.5" mini wheels with special hubcaps.

(Parnell is all you need. http://www.amazon.com/Original-Mini-Coo ... 0760312281 )
Author:  smac [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Mick wrote:
All 997 and 998 Coopers wore 7" Discs. None wore drums, or even stepped drums on the rear. The stepped drums were to suit the different offset Cooper S rims, while all 997 and 998 Coopers wore standard 3.5" mini wheels with special hubcaps.

(Parnell is all you need. http://www.amazon.com/Original-Mini-Coo ... 0760312281 )


Thanks heaps for that.

My understanding of the stepped (spacered) rear drums is to counter the fact the later discs push the fronts out (1" for 7.5" discs). Do the 7" discs give the same track width as drums? (therefore no spacers needed on the rear)
Author:  timmy201 [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
smac wrote:
My understanding of the stepped (spacered) rear drums is to counter the fact the later discs push the fronts out (1" for 7.5" discs). Do the 7" discs give the same track width as drums? (therefore no spacers needed on the rear)

Correct.
Author:  Irish Yobbo [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Mick wrote:
All 997 and 998 Coopers wore 7" Discs. None wore drums, or even stepped drums on the rear. The stepped drums were to suit the different offset Cooper S rims, while all 997 and 998 Coopers wore standard 3.5" mini wheels with special hubcaps.

(Parnell is all you need. http://www.amazon.com/Original-Mini-Coo ... 0760312281 )


Having said that, I have heard of people converting the original 7" discs to twin leading drums, as they were quite awful and suffered from bad brake fade. The 7.5" brakes were apparently quite an improvement (but I have never tried 7" brakes before).
Author:  Mick [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Irish Yobbo wrote:

Having said that, I have heard of people converting the original 7" discs to twin leading drums, as they were quite awful and suffered from bad brake fade. The 7.5" brakes were apparently quite an improvement (but I have never tried 7" brakes before).


They're as bad as they say. With 7" Discs, the handbrake becomes part of your braking strategy. Not many vehicles besides an Oil Tanker requires a braking strategy.

I fitted a set of EBC Greens to put off the brake fade component a little longer.
Seems to be an improvement. I wonder if EBC really thought it through before they produced a batch of EBC Greens for the 997. They must move like ten of these pads a year :lol:

I think it is all part of the mystique of these little fire breathers.... I could change to 7.5s, but I wouldn't.

Image
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
I wonder if the problems with brake fade are the result of people not knowing the correct way to bed in the old style pads? They needed to be cooked and cooked till they faded no more.

A VH-44 would overcome any other deficiency. You know when people say that a booster only makes the pedal softer and won't improve the brakes, with a car that won't stop no matter how hard you push the pedal fitting a booster will actually improve it.
Author:  smac [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Morris 1100 wrote:
I wonder if the problems with brake fade are the result of people not knowing the correct way to bed in the old style pads? They needed to be cooked and cooked till they faded no more.

A VH-44 would overcome any other deficiency. You know when people say that a booster only makes the pedal softer and won't improve the brakes, with a car that won't stop no matter how hard you push the pedal fitting a booster will actually improve it.


So no booster as standard in the Coopers?
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
They didn't have a vacuum booster, they had a thing called an intensifier, it is supposed to increase the brake line pressure.
I think this is where most of the Cooper brake problems come from.
Author:  MG Rocket [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
You would have to think there is more to it then just an extra 1/2" in diameter.
The 1/2" couldn't be difference between 'next to useless' and great.
Author:  drmini in aust [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
The 7" rotors are only 1/4" thick and the pads are way smaller. 997 ones were postage stamps.
But you can mill the calipers out for 998 pads.
I ran them like this on my `76 Clubby auto hydro bitsa, it stopped pretty well with Metal King pads and a VH44 servo! 8)

As for the comment re 2LS drums being better, that old chestnut was true re the 997 Cooper brakes which were useless. Drums do stop better, ONCE. But they don't self-adjust like discs do.
Author:  Mick [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Morris 1100 wrote:
They didn't have a vacuum booster, they had a thing called an intensifier, it is supposed to increase the brake line pressure.
I think this is where most of the Cooper brake problems come from.



The Oz Coopers didn't have the intensifier fitted. Perhaps the earliest press release cars had them, but not the Australian produced models. Very rare to find in Oz. Probably a good thing seeing they didn't move beyond the Coopers.

I had a 997 fitted with a Lockheed booster once. It did improve the braking with respect to the amount of pedal effort required, but the integral of effort and time span before fade occurred was still the same. Pads don't last too long in them. They're tiny next to Cooper S pads, but with the same amount of weight to pull up.
Author:  kiwiinwgtn [ Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Stu I have a 64 cooper unrestored if you want to check anything. Its a two owner car and very original
Author:  Tadhg [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
On drums, Smac, or just on the 997 discs? Given that the 998 arrangement had the larger pads, as referenced by the good Dr? The chassis number referenced could just be the changeover point in the caliper types.

It's also worth pointing out that most of what I've read states the 998 had a smaller bore master cylinder - the only non-standard bore Mini master cylinder. Which reduced pedal effort, albeit at the cost of extra pedal travel.

I drove a Mini with Cooper discs (unsure of the pad size, think they were early ones - master cylinder was a standard (i.e. bigger) bore one, car was a 63) as a daily as my first car. Gave my little sister whiplash with it. Never had issues with fade... Then again, I've never been one for hard braking (other than to test the brakes that one time when I gave my sister whiplash), and it never went on a track.
Author:  smac [ Fri Jan 17, 2014 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Cooper experts please (not S)
Tadhg wrote:
On drums, Smac, or just on the 997 discs?

I'm looking at a car that has drums. I've heard before (and it's mentioned above) that some found them so bad they fitted drums, but I'm inclined to think that's 143rd hand information..... :roll:
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