Car goes off to workshop tomorrow and then to panel shop for blasting. I am reluctant to drill out the ID plate original rivets. Is it normal to just do it and not worry about it? I guess if I don't it wont be properly prepared or painted and the ID plate will end up getting blasted and painted as well. A rivet is a rivet I guess. Probably answered my own question but don't want to stuff this up. Cheers.



Also on this subject, should I remove the bonnet catch entirely or is it best to leave the spring alone?

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Flute - 68 MK I Cooper S
Member: VMCI #2474
Member: International Mini Model Collectors Club

Yes you have answered your own question. They're just rivets and it will get damaged. The blasters don't care what they blast...

The hook can come apart, its easy to assemble. There will already be a large pile of small and seperate items to be painted in any case.

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SooperDooperMiniCooperExpertEngineering

All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.

Thanks for quick reply. I can see the 'Morris Cooper' boot badge getting snapped in half before I put it back on! Cheers.

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Flute - 68 MK I Cooper S
Member: VMCI #2474
Member: International Mini Model Collectors Club

Flute,
I would Strongly advise against removing the ID plate from a restoration project, especially a Cooper s where the originallity can be questioned.
It is becoming a very frowned upon practice World Wide to remove the ID plates from restoration Projects.
It is a question of the cars Integrity and Value.
This is A World Wide Trend , not just my opinion so be carefull about the decision you make.

Mask it up and protect it by some means while being blasted then hand finish around it later is my advice.

Dave

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Jim - I haven't faced this situation so can't speak from fact, but when I'm looking at a 'rare and desirable' car, such as a Cooper S, it always casts a strong doubt in my mind about authenticity when I see identifiers like ID and ADR compliance plates that have been tampered with. Seeing new pop-rivets or an ID plate that has had the black paint touched-up sets off alarm bells in my mind. So I agree with Dave that masking off or otherwise protecting the plate is the best solution. Even if the area immediately around the plate shows the original paint and the masked area is quite visible this can be explained and should be understood by someone looking later on for originality.

P.S. I'll be leaving the ADR compliance plate intact on my blue S when the body gets some attention shortly. I also plan to leave as much of the original paint intact in the boot, engine bay and inside, even if scratches and wear marks remain. I call that patina and believe it helps confirm originality. I seem to remember Greg doing the same thing with Paddy from reading the restoration articles in TBMCE magazine.

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ex-NSW Police 1970 MK II Cooper S
VMCI #43

I can understand that point of view, particularly for the types of cars you guys are working on of specific historical value and intent of the audience. So I respect this for the work that both yourself and doug turn out.

I would worry about the effect of a drop of brake fluid in that location sneaking down the back of the plate, and under the edge of the new paint and the risk the blaster will lift the mask. The loss of paint on the plate would override the benefit of the rivets, especially as they're type a blind 1/8" rivets available just about anywhere...

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SooperDooperMiniCooperExpertEngineering

All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.

Dave is correct. This is becoming a big issue and the trend in US is that if the plate has been removed the auction house can and often will refuse to auction a car if there is any doubt as to the origin of that vehicle. I like most of us am guilty of doing it in the past but do not remove the plates anymore and strongly advise against it

Mick,
Its not that easy as putting on a couple of rivets. If you had rust under the plate like is common on a MK2, I would photographically log the removal of the plate. Like I said its already a big problem and only going to get bigger as these cars are becoming more valuable and replicas pop up more often.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

If you are not a rivet counting BMC automotive historian keen on maintaining exact and minute detail in car restoration please ignore this post - there is nothing for you here.

For others, you may be interested to know the BMC standards for the ADR compliance plate says it was made from .020" non-anodised aluminium and was installed on the Mini bulkhead using pop rivets, part number DMP0829. The BMC engineering standards specification for this part says it's a 1/8" Dome Headed 'Pop' Rivet Break Stem Mandrel made from Monel material. Other pop-rivet materials used by BMC were aluminium and mild steel. I'm guessing Monel was used to minimise the corrosive effect of having the aluminium plate close to the steel bodywork, but I'm not a metallurgist. Maybe Mick can contribute?

See here for Wiki's notes on Monel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monel

P.S. I doubt Bunnings carry Monel pop-rivets but a nautical parts and accessories shop may.

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ex-NSW Police 1970 MK II Cooper S
VMCI #43

Hmmm, food for thought. Mick, just realised how easy the bonnet catch comes off, I thought the spring was going to go everywhere but it doesn't, cheers.

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Flute - 68 MK I Cooper S
Member: VMCI #2474
Member: International Mini Model Collectors Club

I think we will end up with a subset of rivet counters now. Ones with spectro analysers!

I suppose historical cases like these come from multiple cars being derived from the one wreck and all claiming provenance. I think there might have been three cars made from Jimmy Dean's wreck. One from the mechanicals, one from the chassis, and one from the plate. All claiming primacy.

Yes, monel is a hangover from the days of plating with copper and brass (you will see this on early cars, but still quite common in the marine world as well). It doesn't react with the brass or copper, and is similarly corrosion resistant. But yes you can still buy them easily enough from marine supplies or nut bolt and fastener outlets. Very common as a material still. Maybe not bunnings.

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SooperDooperMiniCooperExpertEngineering

All garage work involves equal measures of enthusiasm, ingenuity and a fair degree of irresponsibility.

Monel rivets are still readily available, including from Bunnings (although I doubt they carry a full range of sizes). They are specified in a number of automotive and non-automotive applications, presumably as mentioned above because of corrosion resistance, while being stronger than alloy. Only reason I came across this is because I am supposed to (and will) use them to attach the seatbelt mounting plates in my car for certification/engineering.

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http://www.mini-hb.co.nz

Don't know about his taste in cars...but Jimmy sure could sing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnnHprUGKF0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOXQr9u8bBk

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"Show me the Mini!"

A question to ask about this type of scenario.
I've heard of stories where the car (not so much mini related but more so other brands) has gone into get (mechanical/paint/blasting) work done & VIN/ID/ADR plates went 'missing' while in the care of said shop.

Lets just say worst case scenario this happened would that be worse, plates go missing or a documented removal & refit using correct type rivets?
I understand both sides of the conversation & I'm just curious of other peoples thoughts.

Cheers Brad

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During the day I work on English designed cars & on my own time I work on English designed cars....

Take it off very carefully. If it gets damage / goes missing where do get a new one. You can't why take the risk..

If you are just relying on the plate to id the car you are a fool that will be easliy parted from his money.

I use a 30 point plus check list to id cars. The last cooper I brought passed the test 100% but was registered as an 850 to avoid inport tax when it was brought in as a private import in the 70s. The seller was upfront and had all of the paper work to support it including the purchase documents from the Uk. I am the second owner. My point is there multiple ways of identifying a car.

I have seen my share if fakes so understand your concerns. But surely if it has all of the correct parts to be say a cooper surley it must be a cooper.

Interesting debate for sure , when i was at the Muscle Car Masters a couple of years ago , they had a large display of falcon GT's & GT-Ho's , and i did notice that quite a few had their Plates removed .

Does this reduce the Authenticity & value of these vehicles ? I can totally understand why they have removed them for security purposes .