ausmini :: View topic - NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body

Hello All,

I've been doing a bit of research the last couple of days into putting a 1275 engine into my 1963 Morris 850. There doesn't seem to be a recent thread with the current requirements/regulations I could find, especially dealing with cars that were built prior to when Cooper S production started. This is all specific to cars registered in NSW, I'm not sure/interested about the rules in other states...

I have been reading the document VSI06 (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... ations.pdf) from the RMS site. It is a bit grey as to what the "series of models" actually is. I had assumed that the "series of models" would have been "Mini" so that I should be able to put in an engine from a Cooper S as long as I do the necessary brake and safety upgrades, and it would be able to be owner certified without needing engineer approval.

Attachment:

VSI06.JPG

Reading this I would guess that I can swap from an 848cc A-Series to a 1275cc A-Series (same original family of engine) from a Morris Mini Cooper S into a Morris 850 (same series of models)

However, talking to both a RMS technical advisor and a vehicle certifier/engineer today I got a different interpretation:
The RMS advisor said that the series of my car is in fact YMA2S1 so I would be able to use any engines fitted to that series only (848cc). That leaves me limited to engines up to 1018cc (848 + 20%).
The engineer I spoke to agreed that I would not be able to owner certify an engine that was introduced in 1965 into a car from 1963. I might possibly be able to get away with the using the "optional" 1963 Cooper engine +20%, which would mean I can fit a 1098 engine, but I'm not 100% sure on that (as they have a different chassis code).

The example I got from RMS was:
HQ Holden has 173, 202, 253, 308, 350 engines as standard. Putting a larger engine into a basic car can be owner certified if all the brakes, suspension etc are carried over.
HJ, HX, HZ do not have 350 engine standard, so fitting one would require certification.

The RMS advisor also mentioned that the Cooper S had hydrolastic and disc brakes, and my car didn't. I don't know if this means he would expect that the same Cooper S brakes and suspension would be needed to get the car through.

I'd be especially happy to hear from anyone in NSW who has recently done an owner certified swap to a 1275 engine into a pre 1965 car.

Thanks, Tim

Attachment:

VSI06.JPG

I had a Moke Californian with a 1275, it had drums on front.

Author:	timmy201 [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:	NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
Hello All, I've been doing a bit of research the last couple of days into putting a 1275 engine into my 1963 Morris 850. There doesn't seem to be a recent thread with the current requirements/regulations I could find, especially dealing with cars that were built prior to when Cooper S production started. This is all specific to cars registered in NSW, I'm not sure/interested about the rules in other states... I have been reading the document VSI06 (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... ations.pdf) from the RMS site. It is a bit grey as to what the "series of models" actually is. I had assumed that the "series of models" would have been "Mini" so that I should be able to put in an engine from a Cooper S as long as I do the necessary brake and safety upgrades, and it would be able to be owner certified without needing engineer approval. Attachment: VSI06.JPG Reading this I would guess that I can swap from an 848cc A-Series to a 1275cc A-Series (same original family of engine) from a Morris Mini Cooper S into a Morris 850 (same series of models) However, talking to both a RMS technical advisor and a vehicle certifier/engineer today I got a different interpretation: The RMS advisor said that the series of my car is in fact YMA2S1 so I would be able to use any engines fitted to that series only (848cc). That leaves me limited to engines up to 1018cc (848 + 20%). The engineer I spoke to agreed that I would not be able to owner certify an engine that was introduced in 1965 into a car from 1963. I might possibly be able to get away with the using the "optional" 1963 Cooper engine +20%, which would mean I can fit a 1098 engine, but I'm not 100% sure on that (as they have a different chassis code). The example I got from RMS was: HQ Holden has 173, 202, 253, 308, 350 engines as standard. Putting a larger engine into a basic car can be owner certified if all the brakes, suspension etc are carried over. HJ, HX, HZ do not have 350 engine standard, so fitting one would require certification. The RMS advisor also mentioned that the Cooper S had hydrolastic and disc brakes, and my car didn't. I don't know if this means he would expect that the same Cooper S brakes and suspension would be needed to get the car through. I'd be especially happy to hear from anyone in NSW who has recently done an owner certified swap to a 1275 engine into a pre 1965 car. Thanks, Tim

Author:	jprior2912 [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
timmy201 wrote: Hello All, I've been doing a bit of research the last couple of days into putting a 1275 engine into my 1963 Morris 850. There doesn't seem to be a recent thread with the current requirements/regulations I could find, especially dealing with cars that were built prior to when Cooper S production started. This is all specific to cars registered in NSW, I'm not sure/interested about the rules in other states... I have been reading the document VSI06 (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... ations.pdf) from the RMS site. It is a bit grey as to what the "series of models" actually is. I had assumed that the "series of models" would have been "Mini" so that I should be able to put in an engine from a Cooper S as long as I do the necessary brake and safety upgrades, and it would be able to be owner certified without needing engineer approval. Attachment: VSI06.JPG Reading this I would guess that I can swap from an 848cc A-Series to a 1275cc A-Series (same original family of engine) from a Morris Mini Cooper S into a Morris 850 (same series of models) However, talking to both a RMS technical advisor and a vehicle certifier/engineer today I got a different interpretation: The RMS advisor said that the series of my car is in fact YMA2S1 so I would be able to use any engines fitted to that series only (848cc). That leaves me limited to engines up to 1018cc (848 + 20%). The engineer I spoke to agreed that I would not be able to owner certify an engine that was introduced in 1965 into a car from 1963. I might possibly be able to get away with the using the "optional" 1963 Cooper engine +20%, which would mean I can fit a 1098 engine, but I'm not 100% sure on that (as they have a different chassis code). The example I got from RMS was: HQ Holden has 173, 202, 253, 308, 350 engines as standard. Putting a larger engine into a basic car can be owner certified if all the brakes, suspension etc are carried over. HJ, HX, HZ do not have 350 engine standard, so fitting one would require certification. The RMS advisor also mentioned that the Cooper S had hydrolastic and disc brakes, and my car didn't. I don't know if this means he would expect that the same Cooper S brakes and suspension would be needed to get the car through. I'd be especially happy to hear from anyone in NSW who has recently done an owner certified swap to a 1275 engine into a pre 1965 car. Thanks, Tim Hey Tim, I actually went through this exact thing 2 years ago. I read the same document as you attached, and although my car isn't pre 65, it still wouldn't qualify if you added 20% to standard 998 capacity. I didn't think about it until the engine was half built, and began to really worry it wouldn't go through without engineering. All I ended up needing to do was a 'change of records' at a place that did my pink slips and blue slip. The change included a change of engine no. and the engine capacity to 1275. I took the document to RMS (i believe that just do it online at the place now) and it went straight through no problem. I just showed a copy of my receipt of engine purchase (proving it wasn't stolen) It's now legally registered as a 1275 (on my rego) All that I was told was required was the disc brakes, nothing about suspension. James

Author:	mickmini [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
I think the two people you spoke to are covering their own just because they are not familiar with the technology nor the models released overseas as well as locally. I sounds like bureaucratic nitpicking rather than engineering assessment. The UK release of the Cooper S was with rubber supension in what is essentially an 850 body (Austin Seven / Morris Mini Minor). All of the components of the suspension are interchangeable with the later and earlier models (details of hydro arms and subframes aside) with no discernable difference in performance or safety. I make this assessment as a professional engineer, although i don't practice in the automotive world, so essentially my opinion is a personal one as far as this goes. Many years ago, like 1980s, my father swapped a 2TG engine into his KE20 Corolla, along with any brake and suspension changes, as it was in a TE27 Levin. The rego and insurance of the day were happy with a letter from Toyota that the overseas model had those specs. Personally I would argue that owner certification is OK - I know i would with my own car (albeit a 1966 with rubber suspension), however you must do your own research and make your own decision as to how this affects your insurance etc. The only thing that would make the 350 engine ineligible for owner certification in the HJ + models is emissions rules. The 350 was probably never certified by Holden to meet the later emissions ADRs.Clearly, prior to emissions ADRs taking effect, this would not stop you putting a 1965 non-emmisions engine into a 1963 non-emmissions car.

Author:	Ginge [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
I haven't gone through this. But mine was register last over years. It's a '63 cooper with all '65 cooper s gear. 1275, hydro and disc brakes. I'm interested to see where this goes because I want to change back to the cones. Well springs but get the gist.

Author:	drmini in aust [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
There are a lot of owner certified early Mk1 Minis on this forum with a 1275 or bigger engine in. Nobody I know has ever got grief from the RMS, or da Fuzz, as long as the right engine number is on the rego. Put it on historic rego, there's less questions & answers.

ausmini https://www.ausmini.com/forums/

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Author:	drjbeam [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
Didn't the last of the 1978 1275 ls minis have cones there was one at johns show parked in the middle of the driveway up the back on Saturday I cant see what the would change between 63-78 for cones setup Your cone suspension is exactly the same like on my 74 but with out the hi-los Did you end up getting that 1275 block on Saturday

Author:	1071 S [ Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
A 1963 Oz 850 is to all intents and purposes identical to a 1963 UK Cooper S apart from the drivetrain - engine, gearbox etc - and brakes. ... and of course superficial bits like trim. All the required S bits bolt straight onto the 850 bits that don't need to be changed.. body, suspension etc. And only a few months later - in 64 - the 1275 engine became available. Apart from shock absorbers the suspension was pretty much unchanged (from that used on the 850)... If they try to tell you the "series" (YMA2S1) is important, you could point out that this is just the local label for the identical UK model... NSW RMS didn't raise any concerns when I fitted a 70s 1275GT drive train to my 65 (UK 850cc) Traveller... Go for it I would make sure I had all my ducks in a row. Then I would just go to the local registry, tell them what you intend, tell them how this fits their rules and ask them to confirm your understanding. Or.. you could do it my way; do the swap, take it to your local rego inspection shop. Take the signed paperwork, go on line and pay the money... Cheers, Ian

Author:	9YaTaH [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
timmy201 wrote: Hello All, I've been doing a bit of research the last couple of days into putting a 1275 engine into my 1963 Morris 850. There doesn't seem to be a recent thread with the current requirements/regulations I could find, especially dealing with cars that were built prior to when Cooper S production started. This is all specific to cars registered in NSW, I'm not sure/interested about the rules in other states... I have been reading the document VSI06 (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/roa ... ations.pdf) from the RMS site. It is a bit grey as to what the "series of models" actually is. I had assumed that the "series of models" would have been "Mini" so that I should be able to put in an engine from a Cooper S as long as I do the necessary brake and safety upgrades, and it would be able to be owner certified without needing engineer approval. Attachment: VSI06.JPG Reading this I would guess that I can swap from an 848cc A-Series to a 1275cc A-Series (same original family of engine) from a Morris Mini Cooper S into a Morris 850 (same series of models) However, talking to both a RMS technical advisor and a vehicle certifier/engineer today I got a different interpretation: The RMS advisor said that the series of my car is in fact YMA2S1 so I would be able to use any engines fitted to that series only (848cc). That leaves me limited to engines up to 1018cc (848 + 20%). The engineer I spoke to agreed that I would not be able to owner certify an engine that was introduced in 1965 into a car from 1963. I might possibly be able to get away with the using the "optional" 1963 Cooper engine +20%, which would mean I can fit a 1098 engine, but I'm not 100% sure on that (as they have a different chassis code). The example I got from RMS was: HQ Holden has 173, 202, 253, 308, 350 engines as standard. Putting a larger engine into a basic car can be owner certified if all the brakes, suspension etc are carried over. HJ, HX, HZ do not have 350 engine standard, so fitting one would require certification. The RMS advisor also mentioned that the Cooper S had hydrolastic and disc brakes, and my car didn't. I don't know if this means he would expect that the same Cooper S brakes and suspension would be needed to get the car through. I'd be especially happy to hear from anyone in NSW who has recently done an owner certified swap to a 1275 engine into a pre 1965 car. Thanks, Tim Deep breath...these empty headed numpty's "interpreting" the rules without a skerrick of common sense are just out of control. Don't they have anything better to do with their tax-payer paid time? Requiring disk brakes? Fair enough...but displaying their complete lack of knowledge of the marque and waffling on about hydro-spastic vs cones is pathetic. Deep breath...goes to have a lie down

Author:	gtogreen1969 [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
All you need to do is stamp up your own ID plate with a different car type. Maybe YKG2S2. Its worked for hundreds of others.

Author:	Convertible Mini [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
Why put doubts and words in their mouths by telling them what capacity it was and what you are fitting in it. Just say I replaced the engine and need to change the numbers on file.

Author:	timmy201 [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
I do agree that there is no significant difference between an 850 and Cooper shell that would mean there should be an issue. BUT I still wanted to check that there wasn't a legal reason as to stop me fitting the engine owner certified. I also agree that the easiest thing to do would be just put the engine in and do a "change of records" form, I'd guess that most examiners wouldn't even think twice, as it's just an engine number and capacity change. This doesn't necessarily make the swap legal to me The LS might have had a 1275 and rubber cones, but also 8.4" brakes? I wouldn't want to have to use them.. I might call another certifier to ask their opinion, and the local British car workshop to see what they think. I'd rather check out all the opinions/options before I commit to anything.. Thanks for your comments

Author:	mickmini [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
I reckon you are thinking about this in fear of lawyers. You should be thinking about it like an engineer, which would lead you to say that it is legal and more importantly - SAFE. Safety trumps legality in my opinion. cheers michael

Author:	Morris 1100 [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
The more opinions you get the more conflicting answers you will receive.

Author:	peterb [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
I had a Moke Californian with a 1275, it had drums on front.

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Author:	Morris 1100 [ Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: NSW 1275 Engine Swap into pre 1965 body
peterb wrote: I had a Moke Californian with a 1275, it had drums on front. It's a Moke. It's not a Mini. Leyland signed off on the engineering for the Moke with a 1275 and two leading shoe drum brakes. They never did that with a Mini so it it totally irrelevant.