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Bathurst '66 cars
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93701		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  deluxe67 [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Bathurst '66 cars
Does anyone know what sort of horsepower they were producing? I thought no mods were allowed, only blueprinting etc?

Thanks

Michael
Author:  bluehishouse [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
Mods were limited by selling a certain amount of same-spec cars to the public i think

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
Author:  simon k [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
legend has it that Bob Holden took his car to bits and balanced absolutely everything, then because they were the #3 car in the team, he told Rauno to drive it slow in practice in case they had it taken off them...
Author:  9YaTaH [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
simon k wrote:
legend has it that Bob Holden took his car to bits and balanced absolutely everything, then because they were the #3 car in the team, he told Rauno to drive it slow in practice in case they had it taken off them...


Most of the teams would have been approaching prep for the race in the same way...some (cough!!) probably/likely had the benefit of carefully factory-matched/optimised engine components etc ...but the main advantage the Mini's had was a potentially out right winning car out of the box, assemble some ace tuners, R7 Dunlops and expert Drivers with large Kahuna's :!: :D

and,

wait for it!

Bobs yer Uncle!
Author:  snurkdog [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
I was told by an BMC works mechanic that some had weber carbs, He said they could be optioned on a cooper S, He was a mechanic on the London -sydney marathon, I know this is fact as i know another bloke who was as well,and he said he new him well and they were on London-sydney together, I wonder ???
Author:  drmini in aust [ Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
Twin Weber carbs were homologated as special tuning parts in UK for competition but they were splits, with special Weber flanges to fit on the twin SU manifold. Not series production motors.
Author:  deluxe67 [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 2:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
Thanks for the replies but what was the ballpark horsepower these machines were producing?!
Author:  low n blown [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
I have it from the horses mouth. I spoke with Alan Kemp about 2 years ago when I was restoring Paddy and spoke with him at length for a book I am writing. Alan said all the works cars produced between 91 and 93 hp. By comparison a standard Cooper S he said had around 80. He would have the apprentice sit and measure and weigh parts to ensure everything was as close to matched as possible. Also production has room for tolerance and the engines were built with the maximum tollerances permissible which would aid in producing more hp. Ie bores were at max tolerance, cams were at max tolerance etc as as rocker lift etc etc all adding up to give significant gains.
Author:  GR [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
HI Delux67
When the Cooper "S" first came out on Merv Waggat's dyno a STD'S' only made around 62 to 65 HP the series production cars after they had been played with were making around the 70 to 73 HP, the factory race cars with 649 cams twin 1 3/4
SU carbies or the split webers and all the factory options were making 95 to 97 HP, this was later increased to around 107
to 110 Hp.
The Mini Marcos that run at Le mans and did 143 MPH only had 110 HP factory engine, the motor that Brian Foley/ Charlie Smith run in the Mini Moke in the 12 hour Surface paradise race had 108 HP on Town and Country's dyno, after John Schroder died I was given a lot of John's paper work, which included dyno sheets from the day of Brian Foley's, Darrel King's Phill Barn's and others , in the late 60's early 70 they were making between 112 and 118 HP, and the sports sedan guys Terry Shield who was top of the tree back then was making 115HP and the cam they were using back then was the Wade/ Tighe 285co the same cam that Peter Manton run in his car.
Graham Russell
Author:  deluxe67 [ Thu Sep 08, 2016 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
Thanks for that Graham, interesting info. I'm guessing some members road cars here would be putting out similar power (Doc?!).
Re my car, making some progress. About to order electronic ignition gizzmo's from Tony to replace the 23D with wrong advance curve. Pretty sure the RE282 cam is dialed in correctly (did it myself). Also retested the compression pressures, all came up around 205 psi not 130 when done by the dyno tuner 'expert'. So the plan is to methodically go through everything from A to Z, play with advance curves then may consider finding a different dyno guy. Pity I live in Melbourne, perhaps I should consider a roadtrip to Sydney... :-)
Author:  low n blown [ Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
GR wrote:
HI Delux67
When the Cooper "S" first came out on Merv Waggat's dyno a STD'S' only made around 62 to 65 HP the series production cars after they had been played with were making around the 70 to 73 HP, the factory race cars with 649 cams twin 1 3/4
SU carbies or the split webers and all the factory options were making 95 to 97 HP, this was later increased to around 107
to 110 Hp.
The Mini Marcos that run at Le mans and did 143 MPH only had 110 HP factory engine, the motor that Brian Foley/ Charlie Smith run in the Mini Moke in the 12 hour Surface paradise race had 108 HP on Town and Country's dyno, after John Schroder died I was given a lot of John's paper work, which included dyno sheets from the day of Brian Foley's, Darrel King's Phill Barn's and others , in the late 60's early 70 they were making between 112 and 118 HP, and the sports sedan guys Terry Shield who was top of the tree back then was making 115HP and the cam they were using back then was the Wade/ Tighe 285co the same cam that Peter Manton run in his car.
Graham Russell


Correction: Merv Waggott (spelling)

Manton DID NOT run the 285CO. I just pulled down the spare engine that I received with the Manton Shell mini. The engine expired in November 1970 with a broken crank, and was untouched since then, for the exception of the LSD being lifted from the back of it. I have documented and photographed all the modifications performed within the engine for future reference. The cam that Manton was running was a Tighe 176 which for the uninitiated is basically a 649. I have another engine yet to disassemble from Manton. If I find anything different I will post it up here.

Deluxe67 the figures I quoted previously were figures given to me directly from Alan Kemp, who was in charge of the Australian works car production during the period you requested. None of these cars ever ran a 649, nor did they run larger SU carbs nor did they ever run split webers in Australia as they were production cars. The only works mini that was produced in Australia in highly modified trim was the works lightweight that was built to run as a closed sports car.
Greg
Author:  GR [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
Hi Greg
Sorry I made a mistake the cam was a 176 0 that Manton used which is the 649 staggered, it has cylinders 2 an3 advanced 5 deg which Abington in the UK ordered 2 cams from Wades after talking to Manton in the early 60's.and I think you will find that later 60 s early 70 s he used the 285 co as a lot of the engine builders did.

As for the production cars there is NO way a 1275 Cooper "S" engine running a STD cam and twin 1 1/4 SU is ever going to make 90 + HP they will not support that kind of HP.
Graham Russell
Author:  9YaTaH [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
low n blown wrote:

Correction: Merv Waggott (spelling)

Manton DID NOT run the 285CO. I just pulled down the spare engine that I received with the Manton Shell mini. The engine expired in November 1970 with a broken crank, and was untouched since then, for the exception of the LSD being lifted from the back of it. I have documented and photographed all the modifications performed within the engine for future reference. The cam that Manton was running was a Tighe 176 which for the uninitiated is basically a 649. I have another engine yet to disassemble from Manton. If I find anything different I will post it up here.
Greg


Just being the Devils Advocaat :D ...if the Diff was robbed, then any "special" cam may also have been removed (for use elsewhere?) and replaced to protect tuning tricks info the innocent :!:
Author:  slide [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 11:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
I was living just up the road from Rick Scott's workshop in North Melbourne in 1972 and he told me Manton had used Wade's 176 cam in his 1310 improved prod car.
Interesting power figures, I would have thought Terry Shiel was making much more than that. By the mid 1970s things had improved massively, Rick Scott did what he claimed was the most powerful 5 port for the Nubrick Min Series, 165 hp I believe - there was a feature on the car in Auto Action at the time.
Author:  GR [ Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bathurst '66 cars
Hi Slide
That's right he did use the 176 cam until George Wade the 176 0 which is the one Abington bought then George made the 285co ask Clive at Clive cams he was making the these cams as they had to be welded up to get the stager on them.

Hi Greg
I don't know if you have the book "Works Minis" by Peter Browning foreword by Paddy Hopkirk,BMC were using all the homologated parts on there rally cars and race cars from 1964 and the public could buy spec car from them in 65,
On page 112 of the book it says "1966 for the first time we were using twin split webers in group 2 developed and built at Abington for a proto type that Timo Makinen had seen in Finland" it goes on to say they made 92 HP 6500 RPM.
Also if you ask George Shepard if he is still around, he will tell you that the works rally cars were far from STD as he was the works navigator for BMC in the works cars in all the big rallies, such as the southern cross etc etc. I knew George through the Hills District car club with him back in the day.
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