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Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
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Author:  deluxe67 [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
As per title.

I installed it myself so I'm confident it was done properly. All the components were in good or near new condition. Crankshaft has done about 20,000 km after full recondition (reputable mini engine builder). The primary gear was used but good. Is it possible a bush has failed causing the primary gear to flop about a bit wrecking the seal? Trying to work out why before I take on the tedious task of replacing it..
Thanks for your thoughts.

Cheers and Merry Xmas

Michael

Edit: I have good engine breathers, minimal if any crankcase pressure.. Clutch is not slipping yet, but significant oil in the starter motor/ flywheel area and the leak thru the split pin hole quite a bit (lots :( ).

I have "developed" a method for removal of the seal; drive 2 small sharp nails through the seal on opposite sides, remove the nails and screw in a couple of small self tappers. Latch on to the self tappers with multigrips and heave a little bit and hey presto the seal pops out. Is this a cunning plan or is there some consequence I haven't considered?

3rd time I've edited this post, Xmas "cheer" has nothing to do with it, not! :-)
Author:  peterb [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
About all you can do is redo it, check it......... recheck it. Check primary bushes, end float, seal surface etc. Do you use the seal fitting tools?
Author:  drmini in aust [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Fit a Rover MPI black seal. They seal better.
Make sure you use a sleeve or shim stock to protect the seal from the splines during fitting.

(Edit) A well known Mini repair shop in Sydney uses nothing else now.
Author:  Bill B [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
I had a primary gear seal leak immediately after a rebuild a few years ago. Replaced the seal soon after and the new one leaked just as much as the first. Both were the orange seals. Dr's suggestion about MPI seals is worth looking into.
Author:  Convertible Mini [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Also make sure your engine ventilation is negative. You do not want pressure in there.
Author:  deluxe67 [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Thanks guys,

I have no crankcase pressure, all good
The seal is one of those orange ones.
I always protect the splines (having said that only done it say 3 times over 30 years).
I haven't used a seal fitting tool, in the past I carefully tap it into place using an old one.
I will follow up on the Rover MPI black seal. Thanks Doc.
I will carefully measure and inspect the primary gear again. I know there is no contact wear groove on it.
Is there a precedent of these orange seals failing early in life? I mean, not of a drop of oil for 3000 km and then bang, failed big time....

Is my seal removal method ok?

Thanks for all your responses,

Merry Xmas to all
Author:  drmini in aust [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
There have been various orange seals sold over the years.
Years ago, GACO ones were good.
A few years ago there was a problem with common Minispares ones. Springs used to be weak and came off due to bad seal design.
They then brought back the GACO or equivalent seal and sold it as a competition one. I have used a few.
Recently Payen orange ones have been commonly used and generally good.
However the Rover MPI black one is best. it fits tighter and seals better.

Your seal removal method is fine. You would bin the old seal anyway.
I modified a 3 leg puller to grip behind the primary gear splines. I wrap a thick cable tie tight around it. Pull gear and the seal comes too.
Author:  deluxe67 [ Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Thanks Doc,

I'll track down one of those black ones. I have a spare orange one of unknown origin so....
Author:  IndigoBlueCooperS [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Is it safe to assume the oil is passing the seal, and not between the crank and bush's?
Is it possible that if your engine oil is on the high side, that you get excess oil around the primary gear that finds its way between the crankshaft and bush's?? That is if the bush tolerance and/ or end float are excessive.
Author:  deluxe67 [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Hi Indigo,

The engine oil level was fine. So either the seal has failed big time or something nasty has happened to the primary gear which seems unlikely. I hope a seal spring is not floating around my engine :-(
Does anyone know where I can get a black MPI type seal ASAP? The car is my daily driver so I'm a bit stuck....
Author:  simon k [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
IndigoBlueCooperS wrote:
Is it safe to assume the oil is passing the seal, and not between the crank and bush's?
Is it possible that if your engine oil is on the high side, that you get excess oil around the primary gear that finds its way between the crankshaft and bush's?? That is if the bush tolerance and/ or end float are excessive.


mine does that... my engine breathes too much and just a little bit of oil comes through the primary gear bushes. The fixed bush is new and very nicely machined, but maybe a little oversize
Author:  simon k [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
deluxe67 wrote:
H
Does anyone know where I can get a black MPI type seal ASAP? The car is my daily driver so I'm a bit stuck....


it's part number LUF10005 - if they're working, Karcraft will get one to you overnight
Author:  winabbey [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
deluxe67 wrote:
Does anyone know where I can get a black MPI type seal ASAP? The car is my daily driver so I'm a bit stuck....

Have you called the Mini spares places around Melbourne?

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=83593
Author:  Karcraft [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
A little bit of background on the clutch seal.

The colour of the seal denotes the type of material used.
Orange means that it is for "high stress" applications.
GE designed this material and is widely used.

The black MPI seal is a Viton material use in "high stress/high temp" applications.
The Viton seal is the next step up from orange seal.

Any good seal manufacturer will put their name on the seal.

Payen UK have been making the orange seal (13H2934) for many years and we have found it to have very good spring tension so it won't leak.

The Payen seal is used by many "experts" with no problems.

Correct fitment is essential.
Ensure the splines of the primary gear are covered (normally with tape) and well lubricated to ensure the seal is not damaged during fitment.

Hope this helps.

Karcraft are closed till 3rd January.

Happy New Year.
Author:  deluxe67 [ Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why have I blown a primary gear seal after 3000 odd km?
Hi Winabbey,
I have.
The places still open (amazed they're open) only have the standard orange ones, of which I have one. I will wait until next week and get my hands on one the the improved black ones.

Cheers

Michael
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