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 Post subject: Re: su needle
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:32 am 
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MINI66 wrote:
I use a BCJ i think - I will have to double check. But it is on a Hif6 1275 (1100s engine) standard grind cam, 12g940 head - 8.3 pistons - Holley blue fuel pump & 7psi sc12 (home made kit)- Tech edge wideband kit. I haven't had enough time lately to tune but have given it one run up the road since tech edge install and i am reading stoich at high revs , rich at low revs and idle.
BCJ seems a poo poo load leaner than your BCG?
Hope this helps


Looking at the others the BCJ does look a little lean at Boost / WOT. still theory isn't always practice :)


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 Post subject: needle polishing
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:37 am 
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I am planning on tuning mine with a combination of needle polishing / springs and dashpot oil. i have a micrometer & drill press so I should be right to go. Just got to find the time. Not a big fan of dynos. I have had my commodore tuned at a dyno out of necessity and for the dyno KW report only.
As long as you have a good wideband air fuel kit and the ignition is sorted out, you should be able to get pretty close to the mark without a dyno.
I haven't even started turning mine and already it runs OK.(more luck than good management as the BCJ was the needle already in the carb when I got it)
As for ignition I run a MSD adjustable boost retard module & pulsar elect dizzy so fairly well sorted there.
Currently running 10 grade castrol fork oil in the dash pot

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:54 pm 
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I have an ADF needle here.. as a starting point before I get the correct needle, would this be ok? it's richer the whole way along the range..
It's meant to be a 90 thou needle though.. what makes this so? wouldnt any needle work for either jet? it'd just be 10 thou on the richer side if you used a 100 thou jet..

What I understand is that you pretty much just want to keep away from leaning out your motor.. but is there any huge problem with running it rich? aside from not getting the most out of it, and blowing some back smoke?

I'm running one of ben's sc12 kits (HIF44 carby) on a stock 1275 motor from an 1100S.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:53 pm 
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phreak97 wrote:
I have an ADF needle here.. as a starting point before I get the correct needle, would this be ok? it's richer the whole way along the range..
It's meant to be a 90 thou needle though.. what makes this so? wouldnt any needle work for either jet? it'd just be 10 thou on the richer side if you used a 100 thou jet..

What I understand is that you pretty much just want to keep away from leaning out your motor.. but is there any huge problem with running it rich? aside from not getting the most out of it, and blowing some back smoke?

I'm running one of ben's sc12 kits (HIF44 carby) on a stock 1275 motor from an 1100S.

At idle, both the .090" and .100" needles only have a couple of thou clearance in their respective jets.
If you put a .090" needle into a .100" jet, it will be so RICH at idle and a long way upwards (piston travel) that you won't be able to run.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:17 pm 
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ah I see, that shows on the graph too now that I know what I'm looking at.
I'm using this http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/suneedle/ to compare needles.. but the numbers dont mean anything to me, do you know what system of measurement theyre using? I cant find anywhere which has the measurements in thousandths of an inch..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:10 pm 
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At a rough guess I'd say you'd need a type 'dyno' needle and spring.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:43 pm 
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umm what? If that's meant to be a joke it doesnt really make sense.. I'm looking for a needle that would be safe to use to drive the car to a dyno tuner.. I'm not trying to ask someone for the perfect needle for my car, nobody can know that..

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 9:11 am 
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Hi phreak097,

From what I can see your on the right track. If all you need is a needle to get you to the dyno tuners, what SU themselves recommend is that you track down a motor of similar (preferable same) spec and go from there... Obviously that is only a starting point....(but it seems that your a smart cookie and have already figured that out :) )

I agree with what you said there about being better off slightly rich until its sorted out. You will stil do damage to your engine running too rich, but it will take a little longer. If a carby is too lean then it can do damage after as little as 30 min (well thats the worst I've seen anyway, I'm sure someone can better that :lol: ).

The problem with running them too rich is that the excess un-atomised fuel acts as a degresser on the bore and and causes the rings to start running dry in the bore. There needs to be a metred amount of oil in the bore to lubricate the rings otherwise they nacker out prematurally, it is the job of the oil control ring (or oil scraper ring) to only let the needed amount of oil up onto the bore.
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So thats that part :)

What needle do you need to for a starting point?

NOT AN ADF, :lol:
Wouldn't try one with the .100 jet, but with a 0.090 jet (as it was intended for),, in a warm N/A road 1275 it was waaaaaaaaay tooooo lean,,, talkin AFR's of like 30:1 on idle and cuirse at 20:1 and not alot better on hard acceleration.... So I wouldn't think about it, I think it would be ok in a bog stock NA motor,,, but not one like yours.

I'd look at some of the suggestions on the first page of this thread. The thread started as a question regarding a blown 998 so the suggestion put forward about blown 1275's wouldn't have been muuuch help,,, but seeing as how you are now running a 1275, they would be helpfull as a starting point at least... obviously you will need to get it dyno'd though,,, and as soon as possible.

So now that I'm done stating the obvious. I'll go back into hiding :lol:


Last edited by Phat Kat on Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:57 am 
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:P Thanks for the reply.
I know the adf is too lean with a 90 thou jet, I just thought it might get me there on a 100 thou.. but I guess it depends if it idles or not:P


How difficult is it to file down a lean needle? what's the process? I have an ancient vane engine analyser which I dont know how to use, but I'd be willing to learn if it would be beneficial.. how far different under load is the fuel usage to unloaded?..

If I finish the car today I would love to take it for a drive.. waiting until half way through the week will suck alot:(

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19?? Morris 1500 (for sale)
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:09 pm 
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phreak97 wrote:
:P Thanks for the reply.
I know the adf is too lean with a 90 thou jet, I just thought it might get me there on a 100 thou.. but I guess it depends if it idles or not:P


How difficult is it to file down a lean needle? what's the process? I have an ancient vane engine analyser which I dont know how to use, but I'd be willing to learn if it would be beneficial.. how far different under load is the fuel usage to unloaded?..

If I finish the car today I would love to take it for a drive.. waiting until half way through the week will suck alot:(


A lot of people would argue that the only way to get the perfect profile for your specific engine is to file or polish your own. I'd largly agree. However, with out a dyno, trying to file your own profile just by doing road runs is a little bit hit and miss.. with practice you could get it pretty bloody close, but you really need to monitor whats happening closely at different speeds / loads to get the most out of it,, and you just can't do that by doing road runs...

You need to be able to measure your AFR while you are driving and record what it is at different rpm and loads, then you can look at it and say... (for example) "ok at cruise its lean/rich/ok, under hard accel its xyz, at idle its ABC" you get the idea? Then from there you can look at your needle,, the top station (first 1/8".... at the thick end fo the needle) is the part used at idle, the next inch is the part used for cruise, and the rest is the part used under hard acceleration/power.

So with your recorded AFR's under different conditions, you can go-->"ok at cruise it was 18:1 so that ok, I'm hardly using fuel good for economy,, but under hard acceleration it was 22:1... that means that either the needle is rising too quickly or the needle is too thick.." so from there you would try a stiffer spring to see if it helps.. if it is still too lean at full power you could try filing or polishing down the power part of the needle, only do the tiniest bit at a time,, remember you can remove material but you can replace it. After shaving off a little, take it for another run and do another recording and see where you need to go to....

Get the idea? Thats probably the most calculated way you can do it with out a dyno. You can get exhaust gas anylisers that you attach to your car while driving. I have one, they aren't cheap ($600), but I reckon they are well worth it.

The other,, rougher way,, is to just take it for a flog and go--> "oh yeah, ok at cruise, but gutless up top, I'll take a bit out of that section of the needle"...

As for trying to tune it unloaded... you can't. Yes, there is a huge difference. But if you're a redneck like me who'll try anything once and do it again if you like it,,, get a set of brake drums you don't want, fit them to the front, put the car on stands, get your redneck friend to hold down the brake a little bit and accelerate at the same time and Hey Presto, rudimentry Dyno :P He risks his life will you check the read outs :P

By the way the ratio you should be aiming for is about 13:1-12.5:1 for power and about 15:1 for a good medium cruise.
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Thats basicly the the idea of it anyway,,, someone else might be able to add more to it.

EDIT:--> most people just file a flat into the needle at the area they need richer... if you have a set of micrometers and a lathe you could polish iit down to size with fine sand paper and match it perfectly to someone elses spec (maybe one posted earlier in the thread)

EDIT:---> ok if I'm going to post all that I should probably also tell you the order that you tune/adjust. First, work out the spring you need, then work out the needle, then work out ignition timing/distributor curve.... in that order :P


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:46 pm 
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usig old rotors and pads seems like an awesome way to go:P I've got a really lean needle I can start with, Just gotta figure out my gas analyser.

how do I work out the spring tension?

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1966 Mini Van (project)
19?? Morris 1500 (for sale)
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:08 pm 
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phreak97 wrote:
usig old rotors and pads seems like an awesome way to go:P I've got a really lean needle I can start with, Just gotta figure out my gas analyser.

how do I work out the spring tension?


Sorry, do you mean work out what you've got or what you need?

Be carefull with that red neck dyno, can be a bit dangerous if the car should for some unforeseen reason come off the stands... I don't call it red neck for nothing :lol:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:59 pm 
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both really..

I think in the end I'll take it to a real dyno, messing around with the brakes sounds like effort.. I till wanna learn about everything though.

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1949 Fiat Topolino
1965 Morris 1100
1966 Mini Van (project)
19?? Morris 1500 (for sale)
1979 Chrysler Regal
1990 FSM Niki


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:22 pm 
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Phat Kat wrote:

Be carefull with that red neck dyno, can be a bit dangerous if the car should for some unforeseen reason come off the stands... I don't call it red neck for nothing :lol:


take the front wheels OFF, then it'll be less inclined to come off in the first place and do less carnage if it does.


phreak97 wrote:
......... Just gotta figure out my gas analyser.

how do I work out the spring tension?


What brand / model analyser do you have?

The SU spring is selected to give you full piston lift at maximum air demand.

see also http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic ... ter+tuning


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 6:29 pm 
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It's a Vane VP-770, massive thing as tall as I am. the crt screen doesnt work.. but thats just for oscilliscope functions, should be able to work without it.. stuffed if I know how to set the calibration though.. it hs knobs which seem to be able to move the needles anywhere I want.

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19?? Morris 1500 (for sale)
1979 Chrysler Regal
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