hee hee,,, well just so the other cyl heads thread doesn`t get pilfered any more than it allready has & also because i said i wouldn`t type anymore into that thread till i`ve tuned 2 of my twinkys

just thought i`d re-start/continue the debate about twinkys here

so,,, i`m building a couple of race engines, both are apporox 1170cc turbo injected twinkys,,, they will both be quite a while away from being completed, but going on the hype of the English twinky minis, (aka the 970"S" pulling 132hp & others over 150hp etc etc etc),,, i`m expecting way better numbers than that from these engines

firstly i`ll let you all in on the specs,,, they`re both Sth African 1070cc short stroke, large journal cranks (probably the strongest factory cranks ever made) ,,, & both have 16v bimmer cyl heads ontop,,, so revs up to about 10,000 are going to be the name of the game,,, long steel H-beam aftermarket con rods with forged 73mm pistons ontop of them,,, TO28 Garret ball bearing turbos, so boost up to about 20-25lbs... as much internal lightweighting that i can achieve without weakening too much

righty-o,,, has anyone got a decent picture in their mind of the ability of this sort of package???

Who`s keen to throw some numbers around all the power calculators on the net then???

Lets throw this one to the pack of wolves then???

who`s keen to add some forethought to the plan???

Please... i`d really like to here what anyone has to say about any part of this plan???

& mind you, i`ve had these packages in preparation for a very long time,,, in fact i think i got the first crank over 10 years ago & it has allways been the intention to build this type of engine with it, i also swapped some parts (a super charger i think) with Jai (Minicranks) for the 2nd crank only a few years ago (maybe 6 years ago)

so to continue any banter or any critisisms or praises of the Bimmer twinkys here would be far better suited than raping someone elses cyl head thread,,, agreed???

fire away

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

I think you will have alot of fun with thermal expansion with a forcefed hi cr alloy head on an iron lump. Especially at those revs. Having the diff and gearbox keeping the oil nice and hot isnt going to help.

You will need a lot of coolant flow to keep that head cool - Is block flow up to the job?

I think it will run and produce big numbers - but longevity maybe another matter

put a head on an STD 1100 and stick it on a dyno matt.......
Turbo's don;t count, it'll make power whatever head is on it....

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Ok Matt, if you are going to that extent with the SA cranks and the BMW head, are you going to dry sump it and separate the engine/turbo oil from the gearbox oil?

That is the only way to get any kind of longevity out of it. i know you will need them to last more than one race before a rebuild, simply because it has taken you this long to get close to one being finished Of course solving this issue adds to the complexity and therefore probability of failure until properly developed.

The other problem i see is that trying to rev it to 10k and boosting to 25psi is going to give you an all or nothing switch like turbo response. i'm thinking Group A Sierra and Skyline type stuff. You will need a set of gear ratios that will keep the boost up. Good luck with that.

Sure if we allow for these problems to be fixed, I see no reason why you can't get pure power no quetions asked about reliability, in the region of that being had from a well worked 660cc kei turbo

seriously though, given Josh gets a driveshaft snapping 200 ish hp out of his 1300cc turbo at 18psi, i'll give you 180hp ATW, peaky and unusable except to throw the car sideways

cheers
michael

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the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

yeah i have one nearly finished Aaron,,, (it`s only a 998) it is happening & will be running shortly,,, Anyone can come around here & see it all layed out ready... (amongst many others in the fray)

however, this particular one has a wet plenum manifold with just a single 1"&3/4 SU on the end of it & just a std mini distributor,,, so all that lot will be it`s archilies heal,,, the quad throttle body injection system will obviously be far better & i will set that lot up on it at a later date,,, i just have too much stuff happening right now to bother & just wanted a cheapo run around donk for my road mini & needed the info from the build of this small bore one for my twinky Build guide.

I must say that i understand what people are on about with wanting the flow & dyno figures,,, it`s not that i`m holding off supplying info & i`m definately not trying to hide anything (like one fella suggested a while ago & i won`t name names, it was too much of a sh!t fight as it was) but (as i`ve said many times before) there are heaps of these things being built at the moment & not everyone one has nothing better to do that spend all the time & money to have one finished just to show off it`s wonderful power spread to internet browsers & forum punters.

there are plenty in England tho & the numbers are in the record books already with track times & dyno results

I also understand what you & Pristic & the good Doc are on about with dynos & their discrepancies,,, we ran my kombi up on a dyno dynamics dyno at the Mini Muster & it only produced 175hp,,, but that was with 25lbs in the tyres & the straps cranked down soooo tight as the tyres produced so much grip that it was wanting to climb off the rollers,,, The dam thing wheel stands in the rain!!!!!! ... it was also run in top gear which is a .7:1 over driven gear ratio,,, basically like a """Massively""" overdriven 5th gear ,,, i then ran it at another dyno dynamics roller & gained 25hp running 40lbs in the tyres & didn`t crank it down so much & ran it in 3rd gear. (which is also an Albins after market gear kit at almost one:one ratio)

years ago i was soooo sick & tired of hearing so many mini customers tell me that their mini had sooo much hp & yet my little roady mini flogged them,,, so i took my roady mini to 5 different dynos & the results ranged from 85hp right through to 106hp. & i only did that to show peoplke the differences between the dynos around Brisbane& alow them the true beauty of the dyno as a tuning aid & no good as comparison between different dynos & different minis.

so i know what you`re all on about & agree "partly" with what you say,,, but we use the dyno dynamics dyno which is just down the road from here & sitinlo62 (Dave) knows the one i`m talking about (altho we don`t get them to do any "tune" work for us, we just ask that they run them up & we do some changes if need be ...which isn`t needed very often i might add) & that`s where we can "Compare" things

I`m very appreciative of Grahams offer to run upo an engine on his dyno for me & maybe one day i`ll have one spare to send him,,, but at the monet i am building 4 engines for customers & 2 for myself ,,,with another 2 (being the race donks) for the race minis.... we will dyno them all when the time is right.

At the moment we`re having trouble getting our wiring guy to finish his work & we`r still sorting some plumbing on the turbo moke,,, i have a complete engine modded, bored, crank ground, it`s been dummied up about 4 times so far & i`m pretty sure it`s all ready to throw together,,, as soon as that`s done & it`s in my roady "S" ,,,i`ll have it run up on this dyno down the road,,, orry but it`s just for the sake of ease

Maybe i`ll fling Graham my 1500cc roady donky with a N/A 16v head on it to run on his engine dyno,,, only happy to do so, but i won`t send something half-cocked... if you can understand that part then we can move forward

i`m not going to rush any engine just to appease the wants & heckles of any internet punters... sorry but patients is a virtue

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Ok matt i can understand you not wanting to do a motor half cocked, no one would expect that. But all i want to see is some evidence that these things work and work well as has been touted. The results ex UK, just don;t cut it for me. we just don't know the truth of those results.
Can you get a std BMW head on a flow meter with a std injection sytem on it for full system flow figures of the head? That can't be too hard to manage.
Might have to call a few bike wreckers and see if i can borrow a head and take it to GR's and get his to flow it....

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I tell you what i will do,,, i have quite a few 2nd hand 8V bimmer cly heads here,,, i will ring Graham today & see if he is keen to test one (i figured that he already would have actually,,, obviously not tho) but if Graham is keen then i`ll happilly send him one to do what he likes with it,,, obviously i`ll want it back at some stage tho

sorry but i don`t have many 16v heads & i`m keeping them close to my heart at this stage, i sold too dam many in the past & am regretting that,,, & i only have one 16v K1200 head so it`s not going anywhere

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Quote from the good Doc on the other cyl head thread-->

"""Last ausmini dyno day at MRC, Ben's turbo 1152 got 127HP and GR's 1401 stroker got around 86? I think.
Yet both these motors gave 140HP steady at the crank, a week or two before, on the same engine dyno.
As said by others, standard rolling road dynos are good for tuning, shootouts and pub points... not definitive HP measurement"""

so which dyno is not telling the truth??? if the same dyno on the same day reads 2 different figures for 2 different cars,,, & yet the same 2 engines read the very same figures on the same dyno on the same day again

both can be wrong yeah???

sorry,,, i`m not bagging Grahams engine dyno but a direct comparisoin between 2 cars on the same dyno on the same day, is much the same as 2 engines on the same engine dyno on the same day

so which dyno isn`t as accurate as the other???

It`s the very same argument in the opposite direction isn`t it>>???

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

oK,,, I just got off the phone to Graham, & yes i was right, he already has a Bimmer 8V head there & when he`s good & ready he will flow bench it

ok???

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Engine dyno has only 2 variables to measure. RPM and torque.
Tacho is calibrated every month, torque is calibrated whenever GR puts the 50kg weight on it.

Unlike yer average rolling road.... wot numbers do we want then eh...

On that MRC dyno day, ALL the turbos gave better figures than the N/A motors compared to the engine dyno. Consensus being that they measure acceleration of the rollers, not real HP as in `torque x rpm/5250'.
They then use black magic to arrive at `horsepower'.

When the turbo boost hits, it fools the dyno.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

was the year beofr last, it wasnt that much differnce but still was significant. Graham got 136hp on his engine dyno and 82hp at mrc. Mine made 103hp at mrc and 140hp at grahams .

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1152cc turbo A-series now with 125.7hp at the wheels !

AUSSIE Turbo mini forum >> http://boostmini.justboard.net/

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hee hee,,, this is exactly what i`m talking about,,, the difference now is about 20hp on the rollers ,,,, but very similar (only 4hp difference) on the engine dyno,,, all i can see is it being more likely that the rolling road would be far more "Life-Like",,, Provided that both cars were pulled down at approx the same tension & on the same day, within an hour or 2 of each-other

& Doc i`m not going to knock you, or disagree with your thoughts about how turbo donks can trick dynos,,, yes that happens,,, but on the other hand i`ve known turbo motors to spin wheels on the dyno , loosing hp & not show true figures too,,, depends on soooo many things & is really no basis for any type of comparison

What i`m trying to get at is the fact that it really doesn`t matter what numbers any car or engine produces on what-ever dyno,,, the same as peak flow at highest lift etc won`t mean diddly squat on the track or in a drag race... "REAL-LIFE" is what i`m on about,,, everyone seems hooked on peak horse power figures & highest flow figures etc,,, & are asking to see the numbers before they`re convinced about the Bimmer cyl heads...What drugs are you people on cause i`d like some of that when the real proof is in the pudding,,, real life track or drag strip times!!!!!!!!!!!!... this is where the power "TO_THE_GROUND" becomes a reality, the 5 port heads are just not as "EFFICIENT" as a twin cam... simple as that!!!!!!!!!

for the sake of solving this argument & to use the 2 cars suggested above---> i`d now like to see whos mini (the tubo 1100 or Grahams 1400) wins in a drag race ??? I wish i knew both cars & wish i have driven both cars because then the seat of the pants & the track times would have already told me which one is the faster engine, because obviously the dynos are in-accurate & i`ve no idea which will be faster... i`d guess that GRs 1400 will have it early in the piece but if the turbo small bore is a rocket then it may catch up & over take later down the track,,, who knows till a race has been run??? right???

& this is exactly where i`m heading with all my chit chat about "Drive-ability... smoothness... use-able power.... broad power spread... efficiency... etc"

This is the real point i`m making & i`m glad we have all re-hashed the dyno topic because it may actually be starting to sink in to some of you that these so called dyno & flow figures can be just a pie in the sky no matter what dyno or flow bench it`s run on,,, If you all heard what Graham & i agreed upon today on the phone , most of you would eat your words... & yes it`s exactly this very same topic

I`ve thrown around a pile of guestimated figures (in the other head thread) about how much my small bore twin cam on a single SU carb "MAY" have & i`ve suggested these figures from previous experience/knowledge & also upon "Knowing" how tight the dyno down the road is,,, & i`m not going to be too far off the mark,,, But if you remember i did take off a decent chunk (15hp which is way too much in my books) but i did that on purpose to show roughly how much these Twinkys will have even on a small bore with single carb instead of injection... Hopefully i will have under-estimated

however i`d almost bet i can get a far greater reading from another dyno,,, & yet on a different dyno again i will get far less,,, the very same will go with someones engine dyno ,,, for example Gary Stewarts Engine dyno up here at Richlands & then send the same donk to GR & his engine dyno will show a different figure for sure

If you can all understand where i`m getting at in relation to the dyno figures,,, whether they be rolling road "OR" engine dyno figures,,, it really makes diddly squat of difference to me because it`s on the actual road that counts & if a twin cam roady donk can beat a 5 port of similar capacity & yet the bimmer twinky having far better drive-abilty & finesse & sofistication & generally smoother,,, Not lumpy & rough,,, then we have a winner ... YES?????????? Well ---> """"THAT`S WHAT I`M TALKIN ABOUT"""

Then we can start on the efficiencey for economy sake too yeah??? so that`s when i add the injection system

It`s plainly obvious that a Bimmer Twin cam cyl head is far more efficient than a very age-ing 5 port A series,,, if the 5 port were a far better cyl head then BMW would have made their engines siamesed 5 ports instead of multi valved twin cams yeah???

To Quote a Star Trek limrick---> """You Cannot Change The Laws Of Physics""""

That`s life Jim but not as we know it

there`s Kling-ons on the starboard bow starboard bow starboard,,,,,

ah ok,,, i`ve had enough sugar for the day

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Matt....
Flow figures give us CFM readings which indicate how efficient the head is passing air. - Make for drivability, Efficiency and power.
Dyno Figures - Show us a torque curve - Makes for Drivability, Efficiency and Power, But mainly Driveability......

Outright power isn't what i am looking at either, drivability is. YOur the one throwing Outright power claims not me...

At the moment we have no idea what they drive like because non have been finished. Your claiming big figures for a Std 1100 motor with one of your heads, yet you have no proof, nor will you build one to back your claim, nor will you put one in a real life situation for people to see.....
Not run one down a drag strip yet have you?

All i want is hard facts not claims, I don't believe until I am shown. Once i have facts, at least something, then I and many others will have something to discuss, rather than hearsay which is all we have at the moment. Fact's is all I want.....

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I doubt if CFM is everything when comparing the 5 port to any 8 port. In this comparison it will have as much relevance as a chassis dyno. The five port has three siamesed ports. The flow bench will measure the flow in one direction but when the motor is running the ports will be flowing in both directions at the same time. The poor pulse flow of the 5 port is what kills it. 8 ports with less flow would probably make more power.

Maybe so morris, but at least we have figures which then can be compared to the various other 8 port heads, KAD, arden etc etc.
Just after facts, that way i can base my opinions on them, as so far I have none to be able to do so...

It may be the best thing ever, and i hope it is, but would anyone go out and buy a car without knowing if it fits within your guidelines of what you want? no i don't think so.

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