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KAD 16v EFI vs Force Fed 5 Port
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50217		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Super-mini [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  KAD 16v EFI vs Force Fed 5 Port
Dyno Dynamics rolling road
ambient temp 30c

given that power results vary wildly from dyno to dyno, only cars run against each other same day same dyno can be compared.


KAD

Naturally Aspirated A-series 1380cc
73.5mm cosworth forged pistons
billet steel crank
billet aluminum richard longman rods
KAD 16v twin ohc 8 port alloy head
KAD mild street cams (bottom end of power potential)
Quad throttle bodies
microtech electronic ignition and injection
KAD 2" extractors, 3" exhaust
KAD 5 spd dog box with LSD 3.6 fd

103 Bananas



5 port

Force Fed A-series 1360cc max 11psi boost
73mm RE pistons
Cooper "S" small journal crank
Cooper "S" rods
12g940 head, unleaded seats, 1.5 roller rockers
RE13T mild street turbo cam
single HS6 carburettor
standard distributor
wildcat lcb extractors 2" exhaust
4 spd all synchro remote box with comp layshaft and diff pin 3.4 fd

102.9 Bananas

these cars ran exactly the same giving an amazing comparison 5 port vs 16v!
Author:  Kennomini [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
And I'm just wildly guessing that the KAD one cost literally twice as much to build :roll:
Author:  1018cc [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ken, are you suggesting that quad throttle bodies are more expensive than a single HS6 SU? :lol:

I think it's impressive at how close they were to each other.
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
with nearly an atmosphere ontop for the 5 port,,, Hhmmmm which one actually won ???

:-)

that one is really a Money vs pressure test :-)
Author:  Kennomini [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think I'd prefer to keep the money and just pressurise the bastard :lol:
Author:  KLAS [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:24 pm ]
Post subject: 
both giving the same power. but at what RPM?
and what about the torque?
Author:  Slo998 [ Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Maybe close to the same peak power but I bet I know which one would be faster around Mallala and would last doing a Targa Tasmania :wink: It’s not all about peak power, it’s how fast it can get to it.

One might start and run nice from cold and last for a while be for the other one gets a high compression sump :lol:

Nathan.
Author:  Lillee [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: KAD 16v EFI vs Force Fed 5 Port
Super-mini wrote:
KAD 5 spd dog box with LSD 3.6 fd

4 spd all synchro remote box with comp layshaft and diff pin 3.4 fd



Bingo. Final drive makes a difference to rolling road figures In this case the Turbo wins as the KAD's engine output is inflated by 3.6-3.4/3.6 (or 5%) hp at the crank that the turbo does not have. Which is approx 5hp. So if both had 3.6 diffs the turbo would have around 108hp and the KAD the same as it has now.

In fact, wheel and tyre size would make a difference too. If both are not running the same wheel size and tyre size, this would also inflate/deflate numbers. (Larger wheels will give smaller hp readings)

This is why rolling road sarks

This is of course unless the operator accounted for these figures for the shootout which they rarely do... All minis are EXACTLY the same after all... aren't they? :roll:
Author:  pristic [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:30 am ]
Post subject: 
Do you have HP at RPM or a dyno graph?
Do we know what RPM the torque is highest?
Do we have a torque curve?

I am actually suprised that a 1380 with 11psi of boost only made 102 at the wheels.
Is this a suck through setup? ie/ not intercooled because you have a HS6?

With the intercooled blow through setups, Bens and My 1132 turbos on 10psi made 100+hp at the treads. On 15psi we made over 120hp at the treads. Power and boost from 2900rpm with my last 'secret' dyno run and drag night made 134hp on 16psi (same dyno, etc) With a torque curve that simply didnt end until it hit rev limiter at 8200rpm


Not having a go at anyone - over 100hp is AWESOME but I am honestly suprised and would love to see the dyno graphs.

Pete
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Now you see,,, this is where i chime back in & say---> ""Why do rolling roads sark?""

After all, it all basically comes back to the entire package,,, if one car has this & the other has that & one car runs turbo & the other doesn`t & one has zippy gearing & the othr doesn`t & one has big rubber & the other doesn`t & & & & &

welll this is the perfect way to compare the entire packages,,,, this is what i`ve been trying to get across for ages & ages

it`s all good & well getting a massive Hp figure on an engine dyno,,, it`s all good & well finding a wonderful package that produces "What looks to be" a dam good torque curve on an engine dyno,,, but when the chips are down, it`s all how it makes it to the road that counts

someone can have a wonderful engine package, but if it`s all farked up through a poor gearbox & final drive & wheel tyre & suspension set up, then all those wonderful "engine dyno" figures account for diddly squat on the road

for instance---> a decent race engine will need a super close ratio box to get it to work more effectively on the track,,, but an engine dyno won`t know that,,, it won`t "See" that,,, it has no clue about gear ratios & how it effects the performance on the track,,, it`s simply not relative at all

but in the real worl that same engine "Without" the close ratiobox would be left behind by a decent road engine with braorder spread & wide ratio box

same goes with a trubo car,,, it may just simply spin wheels & not get anywhere """IF""" the rest of the package isn`t suited

There is a place for rolling road dynos & they can be used to compare "Complete Packages" in a more "Real life terms" situation,,, & i`m not saying they are perfect,,, (obviously they`re not) but if you work with one of them, & use that same one for the comparisons,,, then what`s the difference & who cares about "Peak" hp

i`m more for making the whole package work on the black stuff in a real life situation,,, that`s where the differences really show from one "Car" to another
Author:  pristic [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:38 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Matt and Chong. The rolling road has its purpose, but has no way of proving how it goes in the real world on the road (or track)

Still VERY interested to see the torque curves of these two because that does help understand some of the 'driveability'

If we cant - then simple LETS RACE EM! :) Done.
Author:  slinkey inc [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Around a track I know which would win from those two cars. But in a straight line it would be fairly even I'd say. Unless the sprint is significantly lighter due to having a large portion of the pillars removed but otherwise they'd be pretty equal I'd say.

I think bang for buck boost is the way to go. Can't wait for the next dyno day, I'm getting a new head and putting some new extractors on. Also probably try and get the ignition timing and mixture fully sorted. Hoping for a few extra hp out of that.
Author:  poeee [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
slinkey inc wrote:
Around a track I know which would win from those two cars.

The car that was built for competition use? :lol:

Image
Author:  slinkey inc [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:34 am ]
Post subject: 
How'd you guess? :lol:
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:27 am ]
Post subject: 
yeah Craigs car???

Now "This" is a mini set up for racing--->

Image

Image

Awsome mini, just truely awsome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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