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Harmonic Balancer RS ?
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=53190		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  awdmoke [ Wed May 13, 2009 2:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Harmonic Balancer RS ?
OK, now that the clutch is fixed it's been pointed out that the harmonic balancer is moving on the crank. Just a couple of degrees, but you can hear it when the engine is idling. The crankshaft bolt is moving with the pulley too.

So I'm trying to decide which parts I need before tackling it.
It's fairly evident I'll need a new (used) balancer, but will the Woodruff key also be flogged? I have no idea how hard the material is they make these out of.

Second question: If I have to replace the key, I presume that means stripping the timing cover, chain & sprocket off too?
Author:  Mick [ Wed May 13, 2009 3:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
You will need to remove the timing cover as the key is shared by the timing gear pinion. The pulley is most often flogged, but the woodruff key is often flogged as well depending on how long it has gone on for. It may be that it was a failure of the locktab to keep the bolt torqued up that has caused the problem in the first place, not the quality of the pulley.

A woodruff key is only a few cents in any case from an engineering supplies, if you can get the size you need, it might be worth picking one up before the job to save some time on the day....
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Wed May 13, 2009 3:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
ar,,, we;;,,, it the whole crank moving or is the balancer just loose?

"""IF""" the balancer is tight, then you can take the starter motor out & check to see if the fly wheel moves with it,,, & if so then the crank thrusts are badly worn

I`m just ofering a little insight here because often people say stuff that isn`t quite diagnosed correctly or fully & i`d like to know if the balancer is split ??? (which i doubt as you`ve said that the bolt is moving with it) or is the balance just loose ??? & therfor it`s about to fly off & into the fan blades :-) or is the whole crank moving ??? indicating excessive crank thrust washer wear.

anyways,,, now i`m just dribbling again/still

:-)
Author:  simon k [ Wed May 13, 2009 4:13 pm ]
Post subject: 
just as additional info, I had a HB rebuilt by Ross Tuffbond in Sydney, was $150ex, plus postage there and back

did a really nice job...
Author:  awdmoke [ Wed May 13, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Matt, when I say it's moving on the crank I'm taking rotational movement.
It's not end float. If I get time tonight I'll crack the bolt & suss it out.

I was just trying to decide if I should order a new Romac HB.
Can get one for $180 or a steel/alloy competition one for $225
If ordered this arvo it would be here by Friday, so I could fit it over the weekend...

BUGGER IT :!: Just typing this I've decided to order the #239SA lightweight one, and I'll pick up a woodruff key too. It's only money :roll:
Author:  aaron [ Wed May 13, 2009 8:34 pm ]
Post subject: 
id have given you one for a case of beer. mind you there all packed up , i hate moving:oops:
Author:  awdmoke [ Tue May 19, 2009 1:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Thanks for the offer Aaron, but the $225 includes delivery to my door.
Just a shame I'm still waiting for it to arrive!

As well as the keyway being flogged, the rubber had axial and circumferential cracks the whole way around.

Image

The woodruff key looks OK (I hope). The crank bolt wasn't tight :x
Engine was built by a reputable builder too.

Can I just ditch the bloody locktab washers and use Locktite Threadlocker or do I still need a washer under the bolt?
Author:  Mick [ Tue May 19, 2009 1:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Doc's been advocating replacing the locktab with loctite for a while now....

I had my loctab come loose pretty quickly (perhaps it was my fault, I'm not saying the loctab was crap) so I've used loctite this time around because of the difficulty in folding the tab properly with the engine in situ. It's worked fine.....might have fun taking it off in next time, but no harder than unfolding a loctab I suppose...
Author:  awdmoke [ Tue May 19, 2009 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
Definately using Locktite, just unsure if I still need a washer to prevent the bolt from bottoming out?

Didn't bother unfolding the loctab, it was easy enough to undo the bolt anyway.
I have also trimmed the engine mount bracket for lightness & for ease of access. Pics to follow...
Author:  Mick [ Tue May 19, 2009 2:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
I trimmed the washer down to give the bolt something to nuzzle up against once tight, but the washer is very thin in any case.
I think you would be very unlucky to hit anything with only and extra 0.5mm of bolt..
Author:  drmini in aust [ Tue May 19, 2009 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
The pulley bolts are too short anyway, there are quite a few threads in the crank beyond the bolt.
I leave the washer out and use Loctite 262 super studlock on the bolt. Doesn't hurt to smear a bit on the crank nose and key too. You can always pull the balancer back off with the 2 threaded holes provided inside.
I believe GR does the same.
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue May 19, 2009 6:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
One thing to note here,,, (& i`ve said this to many people over the last few decades)

The cranks usually have shims fitted in behind the crank gear to space them out to line up with the cam gear,,, well,,, as things go, heaps of people don`t remove them if/when having their cranks hardened & of course what happens???,,,, yes that`s right, the shims end up being hardened & turn particularly brittle,,, BUT!!! those same people don`t realise what they have done,,, they leave the brittle shims in place & fit up the engine components, tighten the grank gear & harmonic balancer etc & drive off "Thinking" they have a wonderful new engine

well,,,, it`s only a matter of time & the shims break up & fall out & whoops!!!! suddenly the front pulley is loose

yeah???

got it???

Ok,,, so an easy trick here is to "NOT" use the shims to space out the crank gear,,, but insted to use a suitably worn cam thrust plate & then trim (Machine) the cam gear shoulder down to suit --> to aligne the cam gear with the (now non-shimed) crank gear

Just a thought for all you budding young engine builders out there

& i hope i havn`t made many of you nervouse about your crank gear shims breaking up & falling out,,, (now imagining many of you wondering if you left the shims in place & are now rushing out & checking how tight your front pulleys are) :-)


anyways,,, there you go
Author:  drmini in aust [ Tue May 19, 2009 7:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
So Matt, where do these people get their EN16 cranks hardened (tufftrided) now the EPA has shut the cyanide salt process down everywhere in Oz?

Here in Sydney, we mostly just don't bother.....
:lol:
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue May 19, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ah,,, i think most of the boys are doin the Cryo process nowdays,,, but there is still heaps n heaps of old nitrided cranks around "With" hardened shims still attached,,,

which was actually my main point --> to warn anyone concidering putting a donk together (with an old nitrided or nitro-carborised or tuftrided crank) to make sure they check them & get rid of the shims before they creat a loose balancer problem

I havn`t used a cryo treated crank myself "YET",,, but i`m sure there will be a time & i`m expecting it to be pretty dam soon now so i`ll see what they turn out like first hand,,, have you had one Cryo-ed yet Doc?
Author:  Mick [ Tue May 19, 2009 9:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Matt,

Will the nitriding make the shims as brittle as a potato chip, or are they a little tougher than that?
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