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Metro v Mini Disc Brake Hub
https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6624		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  JC [ Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Metro v Mini Disc Brake Hub
I'm sorry for raising this issue again. I've searched far and wide and all i've come up with is alot of hearsay and.....I've been told today that the Metro and Mini hubs are exactly the same. I am inclined to believe it because:

The Metro Turbo rotor, flange and caliper bolts straight onto the mini hub.
They use the same cv joint.
I understand that the ball joints are different and this is rectified by fitting the earlier type metro ball joints which are the same as the mini ones.

I just want someone to say, "I have sat them side by side, they are different/same."
Author:  drmini in aust [ Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
You won't see the difference until you fit them to the car.. or take them to a metrology lab and measure their geometry.
See here- KC had covered this on the MS/MM forums countless times before.
http://www.minimania.com/ArticleV.cfm?S ... playID=941

It explains WHY you need adjustable (or -ve camber) bottom arms on a Mini to make them work, and why even then they are not quite right. :cry:

Edit> I copied the following excerpt from link above, (Calver's Corner) for the benefit of those on dial-up.
KC wrote-
"There’s always a bad egg in there some where and the Metro hub/disc set-up has one…it does weird things to Mini suspension geometry. Mainly manifesting it’s self as horrendous bump-steer and huge negative camber gains - even with standard bottom arms; worsening with a much lowered ride height. Bump-steer is so bad that sudden bumps caused by anything including mastic joints in tarmac can fire the car across to the other side of the road. This is accentuated by bigger and bigger wheel/tyre combinations. The worst inevitably being the ‘vogue’ thirteen-inch rim diameter and low-profile rubber.

The reason is relatively simple. The Metro has a significantly different king-pin inclination angle to allow for a track increase of some 1.75”, and very deeply inset wheels as fitted to Metros. This is juggled in an effort to reduce bump steer to tolerable levels and give some ‘feel’ to the steering but retaining a 'lightness' without resorting to a bus-sized steering wheel. When applied to a Mini, this goes completely hay-wire. Funnily enough, there seems to be two types of Metro hub. I have fitted several sets and noticed this was worse with some
than others. The king-pin angles are different, but there are no distinguishing features at all. All casting numbers are the same, and indeed have been sold under the same part number since inception of the Metro. Weird, huh? I believe it was something to do with the vented/non-vented discs set-ups on earlier Metros.

So
what’s the answer? None that’ll completely sort the problem. Using negative camber bottom arms (adjustable ones on racers) will help sort camber problems, as will maintaining a reasonable ride-height. Using wheel rims with the greatest inset you can find will help too. If wanting to run a real low ride-height, run a race car, use sticky-out wheel rims (coz you’ve got them) or retain ten-inch wheels, I STRONGLY advise using the pukka Mini set-up.

The last point to make is about connecting flexible brake lines. Metros use two where Minis have one. This is because the standard Metro system has a fail safe facility where if part of the system fails, the calipers are split so two of each four in both calipers will still work. This isn’t a problem as Mini
Spares/Mania sell a conversion pipe kit to feed both ports on the caliper from
one pipe on the subframe. Saves a lot of mucking about."
Author:  Chris [ Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I am not familiar with the differences, but I think it will destroy the standard scrub radius. I saw a photo of a Norwegian car that had a motor conversion and I don't know what he had done to the front but the scrub radius had been altered dramatically and I am glad I don't own it. You may find this interesting, the last paragraph applies to minis....

http://www.auto-ware.com/shoptalk/0_scrub.htm
Author:  minstar [ Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
I have had the metro hub and the mini disc hub side by side and they are different. The Metro hub will create changes in the Ackerman angle of your steering which can produce weird (read dangerous) steering anomylies. Some of the funnyness can be averted by using postive arms and stuff but it will never be quite right. The cost of the all these things will make getting a set of Mini disc hubs that much more viable IMHO.

Cheers Matt
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Metro hubs are a pain, but can be used with some success, i have fitted many (read like 20 sets at least) of these to minis over the last 9 odd years & have had,,,er,,,ar,,,um ..."fun" sorting them all with their differing wheel alignment placements.

adjustable control arms are recomended or you will go no where,,,funny enough, some metro hubs that i`ve fitted have needed absolutely nothing to be done, but they were very few & very far between (read like 2 sets only)

the steering arms are vastly different also, & as i said before, some were happy to have the metro arms & some just didn`t like them one bit when fitted to a mini

be very carefull fitting metro hub / assys,,,,if you don`t do your homework on them , & you believe all what the "pub racers" say, then you only have yourself to blame, there`s normally a lot of work to get them to work well...all beit, they can work very well indeed, "IF" they`re sorted...but there`s a lot of sorting needed, "Normally"

have fun :-)
Author:  13secmini [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:37 am ]
Post subject: 
i think you will find the 2 that worked great are probably from an older metro,, the pre 85 metros had different hubs i think.
Author:  minifreak1 [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:12 am ]
Post subject: 
some interesting stuff said here.
ive got these brakes and I can agree with all those who say they are hard to set up.
I bourght mine years ago I think in 1999 and only paid $1200 for them.
at the time this was a bargan but since then its cost me heaps to get them right and still there not right even now.Ive got ajustable everything bottom top and even my rear is adjustsable now too and still i cant get it to drive like i want it to.
The cars got shocking bump steer....every little bump in the road the car goes crazzy and weives all over the road from side to side.
Over the years ive gotten used to it and just put it down to very sensative steering.
But after reading to the comments above I think i will look into this matter more carefully and see if i can fix my problem with a proper setup of the front.link automotive drive it everytime i complaine about it and say its ok and it drives good but its never been the way i want it.
Surely it cant be that hard to set it up so it drives straight and dosent wonder from left to right while your driving ???
apart from this hick up they are good brakes and they work well.
I might have to find someone in melbourne that has worked with these brakes b4 and knows how to set up a car with them to get it right.
Author:  minstar [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Minifreak mini hubs are quite expensive but I have the metro brake setup but using mini hubs and the braking is outstanding and no bump steer. How much is a set of hubs these days? Personally I'd spend the cash it will make your life alot easier... :wink: :)
Author:  JC [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:59 am ]
Post subject: 
So.....if all that is different is the hub and all the metro bits bolt up all i gots to find is a disc brake hub? Any variety? they all the same?
Author:  minstar [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Doc might correct me but there are only two hubs ever used the drum and the disc the difference essentially being that the disc one has a larger hole for the larger CV joint and stub axle on the disc hub due to the higher strain exerted by disc brakes. All the metro bits will bolt straight on. But as you probably know you need 12" wheels as a minimum unless you want to get into machining down discs and stuff as the metro items are 8.4" disc setup.
Author:  13secmini [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:47 am ]
Post subject: 
took me a year of looking for a set of second hand mini disc brake hubs, they are out there but pretty rare.... I last saw a set on the nsw mini club site for sale, think they were $300, see if there still there.

You can get new swivel hubs from karcraft but your looking at $380 each with no balljoints,cvs or bearings.

minisport uk have them for 85 pounds.

http://www.minisport.com/classic-mini-s ... ducts.html
Author:  drmini in aust [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
minstar wrote:
Doc might correct me but there are only two hubs ever used the drum and the disc the difference essentially being that the disc one has a larger hole for the larger CV joint and stub axle on the disc hub due to the higher strain exerted by disc brakes. All the metro bits will bolt straight on. But as you probably know you need 12" wheels as a minimum unless you want to get into machining down discs and stuff as the metro items are 8.4" disc setup.

Nope- there's no difference inside a drum brake upright from a disc one. You can put the disc CV and drive flange etc straight into a drum one, ditto the Timken bearings. That's how nuclear_mini's Camira brakes are set up.
Only real difference on the disc one is the lugs on front for caliper mounting, and the bottom ball joint grease point is at the back.
BTW, Cooper 997-998 and Cooper S uprights are identical, including the caliper mount. :wink:
Author:  JC [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hmmmm....two more questins then.

1. I'm sure it's been tried before but can the drum brake hub be modified (or some sort of adapter made) to mount the mini caliper to it?

2. My concern with the Honda conversion is that you were using the drum brake CV. So i can fit the disc type CV to the drum brake hub?
Author:  TheMiniMan [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Doc,,,don`t forget the extra meat removed/scolloped from the disc hub for the caliper clearance, the rest is how you say.

minifreak,,,& anyone else who cares to listen ,,, don`t get "too" perturbed about a handling problem & don`t just put it down to metro hub abnormalities,,,there`s probly a very simple reason(s) for you cars poor handling, just that so many "so called" mini experts/speciallists are either too dam lazy or simply just don`t know...

i may sound a little harsh & no offence to any particulkar mini workshop at all inteneded here,,,just that i`ve worked in setting up mini suspensions all my life & have come across most (if not all) the possible handling problems ever invented,,,but, it takes time, effort & money to sort them,,,a lot of guys will get them so close but don`t quite Nail them to a "T",,,& then they say, "ok, there you go, your mini now handles ok",,,anymore work may not be "Value for money"...i don`t stop till i Nail em...that`s the difference

so many will put it all down to the metro hubs, but quite often it`s something else,,, & maybe even at the rear of the car,,,people don`t think rear end because it`s the front that feels like where it`s all happening,,,& i`m not saying that your massive bump steer is comming from the rear by any means :-)

Metro hubs aren`t all bad,,,they can work really well,,,it`s not so much an issue if both sides have the same off-centre king pin inclination,,,it`s really bad if you don`t get a matched pair,,,same as steering arms,,,2 different ones of those & you can just chase your arse around the car park all year

make sure you have a """PAIR""" of everything

Then start from there,,,if you have adjustable "everything" then you`re way ahead, just nail the "PAIR" thing & get rid of "ANY & ALL" play & start again,,,just don`t go stupid on Super dooper offset wheels & you`ll be ok :-)

easy-peasy

be persistant, consistant & resistant,,,sorry i`m not in melbourne to help you, dam hard to help fix it over the internet tho,,,i normally take the car for a spin to get an overall "FEEL" for the "PACKAGE" , then simply look long & hard,,,find a few problems, fix em, take for another spin, find more issues, fix them, take for another spin ,find other minor items to adjust/repair, fix them, take for another spin & each time i stick it back on the wheel alignment machine & keep checking for more crap while i`m there,,,it`s often a very long winded job, but that`s what it takes sometimes,,,my own Targa Tassie "New Blew" mini was back on & off the wheel alignment machine over 10 times before i was happy with it.

there`s no such thing as a $35 wheel alignment in my shop,,, sorry .

:-)

happy handling everyone
Author:  JC [ Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok Matty, I got adjustable everything. Unfortunately a not very commited frame builder so your services won't be required for well....some time but they will be required.
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