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| Ceramic coated pistons? https://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=88702 |
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| Author: | Morbo28 [ Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ceramic coated pistons? |
Hey all, Has anyone had this done? If so, do you have any advice re people to use (Sydney area), the cost or any other tips, experiences? I will only do this if it is worthwhile and if the cost is semi-reasonable. Some random links thrown up by Google as an FYI: Camcoat (clicky) CIC Ceramic (clicky) 
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| Author: | Minimadmarty [ Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
I do it to Ducati pistons on 900cc air-cooled engines, it makes a massive difference on reducing hot spots, predetonation and carbon build up, It's around $260 for two pistons (I also do the heads) and well worth for my use. I must admits I didn't see the point of the expense for doing it on my newly built 1340 Mini motor! Although I did get the extractors done, very pretty  
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| Author: | ba_dm_tsh [ Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
Hey, Have you spoken to the companies you've mentioned? A few years back I contemplated it and did some research and spoke to a local mob who do lots for drag and race cars. They said it might be worth a couple of hp on a small capacity engine such as the mini. They also showed me lots of pistons that were back in for re coating because the coating would last 'a few drag runs and maybe a season of racing.' So, only really worth doing if you're chasing those last couple of horses to get you ahead of your competitor. If you look at your pistons you'll notice that the skirts have lots of small ridges in them - this is to retain oil and prevent wear. In the long run you'd be better off putting the money you'd spend on coating the pistons into buying lots of good oil and changing it regularly. This will have the added benefit of looking after all the other bits in your engine and gearbox  However, coating the crowns of the pistons, and the head chamber, and the back of the intake valve is much more beneficial to performance
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| Author: | Morbo28 [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ceramic coated pistons? |
Thanks guys. Appreciate info re cost and usage. No I haven't spoken to the companies at all yet. I should have provided info re the purpose - to clarify it's for a supercharged 1275. I'm not running an intercooler and I'm considering the ceramic coating as a protective/reliability factor. So considering charge temp and hot spots, detonation and timing are all factors I was thinking this might be a good way to increase the safety envelope? Maybe I'll forget it if they will need recoating. Oh and PS Marty I've got ceramic coated exhaust headers too
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| Author: | ba_dm_tsh [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
It's only the skirt coating that will wear and is not really necessary for a road engine.. But like you said, especially for a supercharged application, charge temp could be a problem. I'd have a look at what it will cost you to do the piston crowns, head chambers, and back of your intake valves as these will all help to stop unnecessarily heating your intake charge. And if done properly by a reputable company should last for years. |
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| Author: | Morbo28 [ Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
I agree I would only get the piston crowns, not the skirts. I didn't think about the head chambers or back of intake valves, I'll consider that too, thanks. Chatting with my engine builder and getting prices so I'll weigh it up. If anyone has any recommendations for who to speak to I'm all ears
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| Author: | Besser [ Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
You want to dump heat out of the piston as this is where the oil gets most degradation from heat. Using a ceramic as a thermal boundary is great to stop the heat getting into the piston from the top. Using ceramic as a friction modifier is something different. Talk to the coaters they'll know the mix to suit each. get that nasty charge heater coated, called the inlet valve. |
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| Author: | Besser [ Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
My bad.... Those piston tops are coated |
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| Author: | 850man [ Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
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| Author: | GR [ Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
850man Why would you put ceramic coating on the skirt of a piston? Graham Russell |
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| Author: | Morbo28 [ Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
GR wrote: 850man Why would you put ceramic coating on the skirt of a piston? Graham Russell GR I'm guessing you are asking for a specific point; going by the literature of the people who sell these services, they suggest that they ceramic coat different parts with different mixes for different purposes. http://www.cicceramic.com.au/coatings/piston-coatings wrote: Pistons can be coated with three different systems. They are Dry Film Lubricants, Thermal Barriers and Oil Shedding Coatings. Crown = heat shield and heat disperser, skirts = dry film lubricant. Again, this is the brochure, not checked against any independent reseacrh. But yes...850, thanks heaps for the post - may I ask: why skirts only? |
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| Author: | Gulabill63 [ Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
If you look a little deeper into coatings you will find "Ceramic" coating of pistons is not possible. A true "Ceramic" coating requires more heat to apply than a piston will accept without annealing. The dry film lubricants aren't much more than Molybond in a can baked on. You would be far better off getting your bores honed to an acceptable standard to suit piston material, ring width and tension, oil to be used and of course application. |
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| Author: | Gulabill63 [ Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
Re-read your post regarding application. Your missing the point of crown coatings. Coating the crown is to limit the heat transfer of combustion thereby increasing efficiency? by releasing more Btu's from the charge. The down side is no coating available in Oz will hang on, while it does it puts more strain on the cooling system and requires the top ring to take on more heat than it should. The spark plug will cause more of a hot spot than any part of the piston will, followed by the exhaust valve. Did your engine builder not explain all this to you? |
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| Author: | GR [ Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
Hi gulabill63 Your comment at the bottom of your postings about RandD i'll give you an example of research that did not work, awhile back I had valve springs made people called them the blue and white ones they were the best on the market bar none, When Keith Calver came out here he took them back to England and had them copied but they could not get the same wire that I used but the wire that they use is very close and they are the best spring on the market for minis at the moment. Now at the same time I had another spring made which was better again, bigger in dia and taller they run it through their spring programme the same one that formula one was using at the time for valve spring development so I had the springs made, only to find that they did not work in the mini's at 7200RPM they were out of control $8000 down the drain. Now when we put then in other 4 cylinder motors (fords, Nissans and other 4's) they would run out to 9500RPM with out a problem. When I went back to the manufacture they could not believe that they did not work, but the one thing the could not put into the programme was the harmonics that the mini motor has and other 4's do not. And the same with the beehive springs that I used, ovate wire all the singing and dancing coatings very expensive springs,they claim that they would cope with the cam and harmonics of the mini, run them twice broke a rocker each time, went back to the old springs no problems. As for the coatings when Frank Gardener was doing the M3 BMW he did a lot of work with Qantas with ceramic coatings on the top of pistons only to find it did not work, at the time I was running tunnel boats and we coated the tops of the pistons and the head, I could not find any HP gain on the dyno,(I have the only power head dyno in the country for outboard motors), my mate who worked for Qantas at the time coated his mini cylinder head , valves and pistons, on the dyno we lost 2 or 3 HP but that could of been human error on my part, a professor at Latrobe University in Victoria told us that it should not be used in a high speed four stroke engine but it may work in a low revving diesel engine, and as you say most of the coatings today are only thermal coatings. Graham Russell |
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| Author: | MG Rocket [ Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Ceramic coated pistons? |
Hi GR, On the harmonics thing, would the 3 bearing crank have anything to do with it. Is the harmonics the same with the '5' bearing crank? Or could it be the 3 bearing cam shaft? |
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