Morris Mini Van YJBAV6
Has anyone have a late build number Mini Van in the range greater than YJBAV6 3956
Some parts catalogues are indicating production changes in the range 4222 to 4536.
Trying to confirm these vehicles were actually built.
Any assistance would be most appreciated.

_________________
John Sneddon
0408 431 807
1963 Morris Cooper
1965 Morris 850
1968 Morris Cooper S

John Sneddon could well examine the obvious errors in the vehicle codes he enquires about before he makes some estimate of build numbers.
Identification Code YJBAV6R 4221 is listed as a change point for a fuel tank in PUB23 Leyland Mini but this cannot be correct since that part (with evaporative emissions control) wasn’t in existence until late 1975 for ADR 27a introduction the next year. The parts list PUB23 should probably show 021X2V1M10 4221 (note, all these cars up to the introduction of CBU UK engines were incorrectly stamped 2S2 (Saloon) and 2V2 (Van) instead of 2S1 and 2V1).

Identification Code YJBAV6R 4256 and 4537 are shown in Parts Amendment Advice dated March 1973 for PUB1052 (and repeated in PUB23) but the same serial numbers 4256 and 4537 are also shown for saloon YG2S6 for the same change point which is a coincidence beyond acceptance and brings into doubt the validity of these numbers for both.

Tony Cripps

Thanks for your comment, Tony, you may be correct. I will investigate. I have been concerned about the numbers YJBAV6 4222 to 4536, as they do not fit the sequence of the other vehicles in my data base, thus the question. Also, numbers do not fit with the calculations I have made covering production rates for all vehicles based upon the current known facts.

Vehicle 021X2V1M10 4221 does not exist. The correct code is 021G2V2M10 4221. The letter "X" is not present on the Van Compliance plate. For examples of the correct Compliance plate, refer to the Ausmini Van database.

The question of correctness for body stamping being "1" or "2" is open for debate. All the Compliance plates I have sighted for this era have been stamped "2". As the Compliance plate is a legally issued item by the company, then all my references will remain as noted on the respective plate.

_________________
John Sneddon
0408 431 807
1963 Morris Cooper
1965 Morris 850
1968 Morris Cooper S

Yes I agree the placeholder character X is G on an actual plate for the ADR listing in the case of the Van for 1975. In Engineering documentation, X is generally used since it was known in advance that the letter would change from time to time for what was the same model vehicle. Unfortunately, X started to be used later for an actual ADR list which is unfortunate. The trim code 2 for YDO21 should have been a 1 but wasn't corrected until 1975. For YDO22, the trim code should have started with 1, and increased sequentially with Sunshine, SS, and LS. 1 does not mean a poverty level of trim, but the lowest level of trim for that model - a distinction which is often not appreciated. For the car serial numbers in question, the joggled steady bar purportedly introduced at 4536 was introduced (released for production) late 1972 as far as I can tell.

I believe you are correct in relation to YJBAV6 4221 in that it is incorrectly quoted in PUB23 and should be assigned to 021G2V2M10 4221.

The main problem I still have relates to YJBAV6 4416, which also applies to YG2S7 14767 and YG2S6 1469, the introduction of revised seats and YJBAV6 4536, which apply to YG2S7 9231 and YG2S8 1133 the introduction of the joggled engine steady. All references taken from PUB23/Sheet1/ Slide 92 and slide 50 respectively.

In relation to the revised seats, the three build numbers quoted, ie YJBAV6 4416, YG2S7 14767 and YG2S6 1469 are all outside the range of vehicles I have been able to locate, these being YJBAV6 3956, YG2S7 8972 and YG2S6 1424.

Further on the engine steady YG2S7 9231 was built January 1973 and YG2S8 1133 April 1972, vastly different dates. As for YJBAV6 4416, the highest number Van in this range I can confirm is YJBAV6 3956 built in December 1972.
If you assume that YJBAV6 4416 is correct then an additional 500 vans were built in January 1973 which does not fit with the balance of the data.

Thus my original question "Has anyone have a late build number Mini Van in the range greater than YJBAV6 3956"

_________________
John Sneddon
0408 431 807
1963 Morris Cooper
1965 Morris 850
1968 Morris Cooper S

Consider the change point information for the introduction of the new seats, actually on Page 423.

1. INTRO OF LEYLAND MINI TO YG256/14767 - YG257/1469 AND YJBAV6R/4416
2. YG256/14760 TO 021x2S1M09/24489 – YG257/14770 TO 022x2S1M09/14669 AND YJBAV6R/4417 to 021x2V1M09/6614

Just about everything in the above deserves a comment.

Change Point 1
1. BMC identification codes YG25 should be YG2S
2. No Leyland Mini was identified with a BMC type code YG2S prefix and so one cannot follow “Intro of Leyland Mini to” a YG2S type code. YG256/14767 should probably have the prefix 021x2S1M10 (or 021D2S2M10 if you prefer), or if that serial number has tipped over into the M09 series engines, then 021D2S1M09 since at 14767 we are getting close to the change from 1098 to 998cc.
3. YG257/1469 should probably be 022x2S1M09 14769 to line up with the serial number in (2)
4. YJBAV6R/4416 should probably be 021x2V1M09 4416

Change Point 2
1. YG256 14760 should probably be 021x2S…. 14760
2. Note the use of “x” as a place holder in the code in these change points
3. YG2S7 14770 should be 022x2s…14770
4. 022x2S1M09 14669 occurs before 14770 so something wrong with the sequence
5. YJBAV6R 4417 should probably be 021x2V1M09 4417

The part number for the engine steady AYG2296 indicates that it is an engine part, and it is listed in the engine section of the parts lists, and so the serial numbers shown are most likely engine numbers. Same comment applies for the valves and cotters (narrow seat) which occur at a similar change point on Page 24. Being engine components, this explains why YG2S6 is lumped in with YJBAV8R (should be 6R) 4255. Although this same number is quoted for YG2S7 in PUB23, the number for YG2S7 is given as 8535in PAA80 March 1973 and also PUB7 which is more realistic.

The Car Serial numbers you are asking about are all in doubt for an early 1973 vehicle.

Is this info from the ADR plate and can you post a photo? I will add it to the van register if it is.

I am very dubious with car numbers quoted by the factory or parts manuals. Many times they quote car numbers when they should be quoting engine numbers.

Well it seems we are not to see a picture from Mr Sneddon for supposed Car No. 3956, but no matter. All is not lost. There is plenty of sales data in the company records which are probably more realistic. Consider for example, the YJBAV6R series of vehicles being discussed here.

In the period October 1972 to Dec 1972 (which we will take as the final three months of production before the change to the 10 digit identification code), the company reports some 400 sales. This works out at an average of 133 per month. In consulting my personal database (it seems fashionable these days to have such a thing), I note that Car Serial Number 2999 was manufactured in October 1972. However, we don't know if it is the beginning or the end of October, so let's guess half way. The following calculations are now in order:

+2999 (a sample compliance plate observed in the field)
-501 (to remove the offset for serial number sequence)
+66 (add half way for October)
+133 (average Nov)
+133 (average Dec)
+ 190 (Dealer stock as at 1st Oct from sales reports)
+412 (Plant sales, e.g. fleet sales, exports, etc, from sales reports)
---------
3366 produced
--------
Adding 501 to this, we get 3867 which is only 90 cars or so different from the alleged serial number 3956 reported by Mr Sneddon. Our estimates do have some assumptions associated with them and the final number given here is probably plus or minus 100 cars or so. This is probably good enough for most interested persons, and it seems to me to be pretty pointless to quote numbers like “4036” as if it were a quote from the New Testament.

However, the original question, such as it was, does serve to illustrate the dangers of an inadequate acceptance of what appears in print, even if it is a factory document.

Tony Cripps

Assuming your calculations for the monthly Van production October to December 1972 are correct, my figures show otherwise, and YJBAV6 2999 was built mid October, my data also show otherwise, then the final vehicle produced in the range is YJBAV6 3866.

Are you stating this is the correct vehicle number for the last YJBAV6 van to be built?

Can you show any verifiable proof of any vehicle greater than YJBAV6 3356, the last vehicle recorded in Ausmini Van Register.

I am confused by the inclusion of "Dealer Stock" and "Plant Sales" into this calculation for this is double counting of production which is the true figure to be established.

Following on from your reply of 14 May, and that I received Nil replies to my original question, I came to the conclusion that the vehicles listed in the YJBAV6 3500 plus range do not exist and references made within various BMC/Leyland publications is incorrect. I have assessed that which I believe to be the highest build number to be YJBAV6 3383 thus a build number of 2883 based upon a number of factors, namely
1. YJBAB6 3269 built December 72
2. YJBAV6 3356 noted in Ausmini Van Register
3. YJBAV6 3383 noted in PUB23/Slide N10 - the provision of Reverse Lamp

I would like to hear from other Forum members who may have some additional information on this subject such that we can put the item to bed.

_________________
John Sneddon
0408 431 807
1963 Morris Cooper
1965 Morris 850
1968 Morris Cooper S

Kindly do not misquote me. I did not say monthly van production of 133 per month, I said monthly SALES. These are “retail sales” via dealers. If one wants to determine vehicles produced, then added to this are other types of sales, such as direct plant sales (in the case of Van, these are fleet sales, but in the case of Saloon, these are mainly exports to NZ and other countries), and also one must account for stock as yet unsold. There are various types of stock – unsold at the dealer, unsold at the factory. The company reports gives figures for each on a quarterly basis.

I said that sales reports show that 3366 + 501 = 3867 is a good estimate plus or minus about 100 based on reliable data and probably good enough for most interested persons. No one is going to nail down the last car produced unless factory production records turn up.
I have no reason to doubt the information from company sales reports and would consider it reliable. If your data (source not stated) shows otherwise, then I suppose you are saying that the Sales Department was mis-reporting its figures to the Managing Director?

On the other hand, with reference to your conclusions.

14th May, you state the “the highest number Van in this range I can confirm is YJBAV6 3956 built in December 1972.” But today you say the highest number is “YJBAB6 3269 built December 72”. What happened to 3956, also purportedly built Dec 72 (we are waiting for a picture) ?

The Ausmini register contains data observed from identification and compliance plates, but somewhat unfortunately, also contains data gleaned from parts books, estimates, and other documents which cannot be verified. An earlier version of this register quoted 4293 as “the last known YJBAV6R” but this entry appears to have now been removed.

In the case of YJBAV6R 3356 shown in this register, this apparently comes from PUB1052 as a change point for twin instrument cluster. But, Parts Amendment Advice for PUB1052 shows the twin instrument cluster AYG9463 being introduced at YJBAV6R 1962 (obviously supposed to be the 10 digit code and not a YJBAV6R code) so this brings into question 3356 as stated.

PUB23 Slide N10 shows a change to the reverse light switch, not the provision of a reverse lamp. Since the switch is part of the engine assembly, these change points could well be engine numbers, but I haven’t checked this. The main point is that given that all the change points given in PUB23 have been shown to be in error for the cases listed previously, it would be unwise to base an estimate of build numbers on those numbers.
In any case, you claim that YJABV6R 3383 is the highest numbered vehicle, but if this is a “change point” then surely others followed with the change included and so would have an even higher number?