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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:59 pm 
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Location: wasleys S.A.
I have taken the following pics with contour measurments for comparison to any other pommy cars. I have checked against Aust cars and found that ;
1 The area next too h/light on this car curves out to light,Aust curves in
2 The curve in the plenum panel is wider at bonnet edge. Aust 110m.m
3 The bonnet iswider across front
4 The length along edge is 6 m.m longer
5 The mudguards are longer and different plenum radius
6 The bonnet has diff. curve to Aust one
7 Pics of brass hinges and welded type rear arms
Has anyone come across holes in bonnet as per pic. These holes were bronze welded and the area bogged over. The area was repainted as original I am interested if anyone's car is similar.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:30 pm 
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Hi Guys;

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the photos sports 850, as you say it answers all the questions.

This is certainly a vehicle that should be saved.

Garry


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Morris 1100 wrote:
Being CKD kits they would not have come off either the Austin or Morris production line. the kits would have been put together in the steps before the final production lines.


That depends how Completely Knocked Down the early cars were. Obviously once production got underway they came out as stacks of panels, but I have the impression that the were fairly well built up when they first started bringing them out. Many of the other CKD cars (MGBs and Sprites) were pretty much fully intact when they got here. They got a bit of trimming and that was about it.

Tim

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:30 pm 
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That is the theory I'm working on , the first 50 or so were complete cars so the local guy's could pull them apart and put them back together again so they knew how to build them . Otherwise it'd just be one huge jigsaw puzzle with a few photo's to go off . That would explain the extra numbers stamped on Davids as being UK numbers where the car or at least the body was assembled , of course that only works so long as they started at 1001 instead of the norm being 501 . There could have been 500 or so complete bodies sent though ....

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 9:48 pm 
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David
Just measured my bonnet. Long side = 745mm and across the front 715mm. Has the large hole in the centre but not the 2 higher holes like yours (maybe it was an S version?).
Can't measure the guard as car is at the panel shop.
Did you check your sunvisors for the right angled brackets?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 11:00 pm 
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1098cc
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Hi David.

I've just been in touch with British Motor Heritage at Gaydon.

Unfortunately, where they used to be very helpful to me on the phone, now it is all about the dollar (or pound) and they will not supply me any information on any cars I'm researching, unless I pay the same money as everybody else. As I am not going to pay to get info on every car I research (it would cost me a small fortune in the long run) I would suggest that you check out their website and get them to do some research.

They do at least have a new service now, where if you just want the info, and don't want an official heritage certificate, then it is only 5 pounds (about $11). A full Heritage Certificate is 37 quid, and a certificate with technical information sheet is 56 quid.

The 5 pound service will give you an email with relevant information, and I think this would be worth looking at.

With Minis that came to Australia as CKD, basically anything prior to about April 1964, the chassis number on the plate is the UK chassis number first, and then the Australian chassis number.

While the 1037 might seem quite high for a car with such early parts on it, at least checking the build date for the UK chassis number (54397) may give some more clues.

The UK chassis number for the car that we featured in Issue 1 of The Mini Experience 14801, and the car was built in February 1960. It would be likely then from the chassis number being some 40,000 cars later that it would be about six months later, as there were around 110,000 Minis sold in 1960.

So, at a really wild estimate, if your car was built in August 1960, and allow a couple of months to get to Australia, and cars were being assembled here from January, then it is likely that yours could have been in the first production run.

Hundreds of cars would have been needed to get into all showrooms across the country, to have plenty for press demonstrators at the press launch, test cars, etc, by the March 21 release date.

So, given these facts and the numbers on the chassis plate, I would suggest that your car is the 537th one assembled in Australia.

As for cars coming in as CBU (Completely Built Up) as far as I am aware, all production Minis in Australia were CKD. CKD means just that, and while some sub-assemblies would have come in already done - eg doors, bonnets - the majority of the panels would have been flat packed.

To get export CKD packs allocated, they had to have a Knock Down Allocation Schedule (KDAS) which detailed every part that was to be included. To get any changes through took up to 12 months, by the time the information was processed through the Export Department, and packing methods sorted out, etc, then any parts that had to be specially made or bought in were available. This means that even though BMC Australia specified changes to the specification for Australian Minis, those changes would have taken up to a year to filter through.

That would explain why such an early car is effectively a UK spec car, and did not have all the changes normally associated with Australian Minis. Being built before the changes of late 1960 explains why it came with all the early bits.

The main exception was if the change was simply a deletion of a part, that would be supplied locally. We know, for example, that even the earliest Australian Minis had local tyres and batteries, so these would not have been included in the CKD probabl;y right from the start.

Don't forget that the Zetland factory had been doing CKD assembly on numerous model cars since 1950.

The idea that the first 500 or 1,000 cars could have come through as CBU because the Australian workers wouldn't know how to assemble them is to say that the people here weren't very smart. Naturally, the production lines would have been set up accordingly before production began, the workers would have been trained by experienced staff - either here or in the UK (but probably here) and there would only have needed to be "a handfull" of cars required to clear the line and check that everything worked the way it was meant to - not 500 or 1,000 cars.

I only know of three pre-production cars that came to Australia, and they were all full production cars built in the UK on the normal assembly line. Pedr Davis says in his book Spotlight On Mini Minor Down Under that prototypes were running by June 1960, but I think you will find he is referring to the three UK cars.

You would need to check with the 1959 Register guys again on the change dates for these parts that you are interested in, but I would suggest that the date of your car will fit in with them.

I have not seen another Australian Mini as early as this, or with so many early parts, so it would be interesting to see if any others are around.

I would suggest though that what you have is a very rare beast, in being such an early car.

My suggestion is that you spend the 5 pounds with BMIHT and check it out. If I am correct in my assumptions (I know, you should never assume anything) then they should be able to tell you the car was a CKD sent to Nuffield Exports (or possibly Austin Exports) on a particular date, but they will probably not be able to tell you much more than that.

This is the closest I can get for you (without me spending any money on it).

Good luck with the search, and keep us all informed of the progress.

Cheers,
Watto. :shock: [/i]


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 12:35 am 
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1098cc
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Thanks for all the input so far guys. I think that Watto is spot on for it's construction around August 1960, going by the date change on the bits[ some only approximate] from the 1959 heritage website. The date could be a little later, but I will definately get onto British Heritage.
So it looks like this car came from England in bits and was assemblied here. Then there are likely other cars with early bits on them. Wild willie's car is only a few later[ by serial no.] Does your car have the small window catches,or brass hinges,or welded rear arms.? This might give us so info on model changes. My car does not have any sun visors, so I can not check.
I now understand what the No. 's on the i.d. plate refer to, but the no.49903 I do not know what this refers to. This no. had been painted over when the car was made, but the 1037 was stamped after painting. This was rusty due to paint being cracked.
If the cars were allocated a chassis no.[ mine;9/54397]in England, then how was each car identified to get this no. Did they have original plate that was removed and this no. transfered to the Aust. plate. I believe that the engines were fitted here, hence the no. stamped onto plate.
I might be too fussy with this car's origin, but on thing that concerns me is the lack of reference to 49903, and I wonder if someone got the plate of another car and stamped the no. 1037 onto fire wall to match the plate.
Did the pommy cars have a chassis no. stamped anywhere else. I think willy has one on the rear floor. I have not found one here on my car.
Again thanks for the help.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:48 am 
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1098cc
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Thinking more about it, the 9/ might refer to September. It is only wild speculation, but that seems to be the only explanation of the 9 I can think of. If the car was built somewhere around August or September 1960 it might make sense. Maybe the early cars had the date stamped on the plate, which was later not added.

This would be something else to check with the 1959 Register and with Heritage.

As for the 49903, that has got me stumped. BUT, the difference between 49903 and 54397 is 4,494. Now, with Australian cars the body number is around 500 different from the chassis number. (as I explained to you on the phone David) the number was rarely exactly 500 different due to bodies not being kept in any sequence when they were sent to the CAB2 (a separate building) after going through the Rotodip and painting.

It is possible that the difference between the chassis number and the body number in the UK was around 4,500, but not exactly, for the same reasons - but then two things come up from that. Why would it be 4,500 difference if the chassis numbers started at 501? Also, if this is the case (and again, I'm only speculating) that would mean that perhaps the early cars did come as complete bodies - though I'm sure this is not the case - and the doors, trim, etc were separate. I'll look into this a bit more as well.

With Australian pressed and assembled shells, the body number was stamped into the body before Rotodipping and painting, and therefore the number often filled at least partly with paint. The chassis number was stamped into the car after final assembly was complete, which meant stamping through the paint. This is why most chassis numbers will have at least some rust in the numbers.

Then there is the glass. If any of the glass, particularly the side or rear windows, are original you may be able to at least roughly date the car from that. Most of the Morris Minis in Oz had Triplex Toughened glass. Where the manufacturer's name is stenciled on the glass, there will be two dots. One above the word Triplex and one below the word Toughened.

The dot above TRIPLEX indicates the quarter in which the glass was made (up to 1969 - after that there were one or two dots which represented the actual month). So, T= first; R=second; E=third and X=fourth.

The dot below TOUGHENED gives the year:
TOUGHENED being 123456789 and no dot means 0

So, as an example, a dot above the E in TRIPLEX and no dot below TOUGHENED would indicate glass made in the third quarter (July-Sept) 1960.

Don't forget there would be a lead time, sometimes up to as much as three months, between the date of manufacture of the glass and the assembly of the car - even longer to get it to Australia.

Keep going, we will work it all out eventually.

Cheers,
Watto. :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:52 pm 
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1098cc
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Gee Watto You should be a detective. Your spot on again!!!!!!!!
The two side windows Triplex, dot above"E" and no dot below toughened
The rear window Triplex, dot above "E" but also another dot in gap between words. nothing below. This etch mark has dot in the middle of the 3 "X"'s in the center of mark.
The door windows have the word"INDESTRUTO" forming a bit more than a semi circle. The letters"AS2" in center of word,and letters TE TS under word.
The front window has been replaced as it is laminated. It has had a wider replacement rubber fitted because it covers the recess moulding in body. This had me stumped when I got first info from England. I thought that there was no recess in front , but one in the rear. I cut part of the rubber off and found the recess.
The info from England and your info narrows it down to sept to nov 1960. The two main items on the body are recess started Autumn [Sept in England ] 1960 and brass hinges replaced late[Nov - Dec] !960. This car would fit in with this.
The fabricated rear arms still seems a bit puzzling. Could be that there were some still avaliable when the later cast ones became avaliable, so " send them to the colonies. We will have the new type" I might get a closer date from British Heritage.
I am going to start scraping paint tomorrow to check out various body ares to look form any serial no. stampings. I have been told to look for a date stamp on machined area on front up-right.
The "handbrakes" Beemer is going to live in the yard, and the mini in the nice dry carport.
Again, thankyou every one for your help. I will keep you up dated.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:57 pm 
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david rosenthal wrote:
Again, thankyou every one for your help. I will keep you up dated.


please do, fascinating little car - can you bring it to minis at the mill?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:11 pm 
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1098cc
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OK, dating Indestructo glass is just as easy.

The two letters under the I of the Indestructo name, which is in the arc, are the two important ones. The two letters under the O are not used for dating.

The first letter under the I indicates the quarter that the glass was made, using the word BRIT, where B=1st quarter, R=2nd, I=3rd and T=4th.

The seocnd letter gives the year, from the word INDESTRUCO (note: only one T), but not in any straightforward way. I=7, N=8, D=9, E=0, S=1, T=2, R=3, U=4, C=5, O=6

(By the way, all this glass dating info is on the last page of John Parnell's gospel of the Mini Cooper - Original Mini Cooper and Cooper S)

So, your glass with the letters TE under the I was made in the 4th quarter of 1960. I would doubt that this glass has been replaced, to be so near to the other glass in date, so that would put your car slightly later - BUT, it is possible that the glass was not kept in any specific order either when the cars were assembled in Australia - as long as they had the correct number of LH and RH glass, why worry when it was made?

We seem to have narrowed it down fairly well for you, but I think the most important part of the puzzle will no be getting info from the BMIHT.

Cheers,
Watto.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:37 am 
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1098cc
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Thanks again for that info. I have a gut feeling that it will be late nov to dec build. Maybe I should start a date guessing pool. Who ever picks the closest date between sept.1 and dec 31 wins a bottle of scotch[ good stuff ofcourse] If it is after dec 31 then we all can share it at mini's at the mill.
I think that the redbacks can continue to live in the other cars and I will yet the kids started on this car.[They like sanding and scraping paint and rust]

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:08 am 
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998cc
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Thanks Watto for the glass dating info.
Just dated my car using the glass and appears to have been built in the last quarter of 1960 same as Davids (his is 49 cars earlier).
Interestingly, all my glass is 4th quarter 1960 except for Driver's side rear quarterlight which is dated 3rd quarter 1960.

I presume that these cars would have been assembled in early 1961 as the first batch of 850's sold. Watto, do you have any idea how many cars were produced in the initial production run? If the Australian number started at 501 then my car would have been the 586th car off the line. Does this seem to be reasonable given that this car was one of the earliest assembled here. How many 850 sales occured in 1961?

I have contacted 1959 register to see if they can provide any further info on build dates or numbering, particularly the 50043 number on my car. Haven't heard back yet. I will request a Heritage Certificate to see if I can find a more precise build date. David, what numbers have you supplied to Heritage? It will be interesting to see what records they have kept for the CKD cars.

I have included a few more photos of my car including the original engine in original colour and with the metal oil filler cap. Seats and original trim which I think will be a challenge to find for a restoration.
Please keep me informed on any new finds.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:36 am 
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Damn !!!!! looks like I have a Austin 7 probably made in China.
This info confirms what we have been able to work out so far. A couple of other blokes from England have said basically the same thing. One bloke said that the Eng. No’s were consecutive for both Marques during production. The way he worked it out is:
1959 total production 19749
1960 total production for year 116677 divide by 52 = 2243.7 cars/week both marques combined
My car no. 114264 less 19749 = 94515
94515 divide by 2243.7 = 42.13 i.e 42 week of 1960 This works out to mid oct.
It looks like the 8AM engs were Austins but they badged them Morris
Has anyone obtained a certificate for their car and if so what info and no’s did you send. I want to double check against the no’s I have on mine.
It would also be interesting to see what no’s are on cars that are known to be CKD cars.


Hi David,

Regarding the numbers on your car. The engine number denotes an Austin model built approx Jan 61. The 49903 may be the body number. That would also tie in with an early 61 car. The car number on the plate does not refer to a U.K. chassis number. For an Austin car the prefix would be AA2S7 and Morris car MA2S4. All CKD cars were also allocated with a chassis number before leaving the U.K. but some destination countries renumbered them with their own sequence of numbers. The number you quote is definitly not a U.K. number and if it is not an Aussie number either then perhaps it was originally from another country. It is interesting that your car has an Austin engine. I thought all Aussie built cars were Morris versions. Does suggest that your car was an import before Austrailian assembly started. The seat frames, welded trumpets and other details you mention all denote a late 60 / early 61 car.
The existing factory records are listed by chassis number so the only way to trace the actual build date of a car is knowing the original U.K. chassis number ( prefix AA2S7 or MA2S4 )
Hope this is of some help. It certainly suggests that your car is one of the oldest in Austrailia.

Best regards

Trevor

www.1959miniregister.com

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:13 am 
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998cc
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It would seem that the only other car that fits in with our 2 early cars is the one for sale in Tassie. Its body number also starts with the same prefix 9\ and the mystery number appears on the right hand side of the speedo hole along with the ID plate.

The car for sale in Qld has a different numbering system again and although early is probably late 1961 or so. Interestingly, the engine number plate is still attached to the radiator shroud and the ID plate is mounted on the driver's side front cross member. This car may be an import rather than an Australian CKD car?

There is another early car here in Melbourne somewhere. I think I can track it down to check its numbers and see if its got any other history.


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