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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:07 am 
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998cc
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Haven't had a chance to visit my car yet - will do next week. Pretty sure from memory that it did have the fabricated suspension bits but want to double check (failing memory and all that!).

In regards to completed cars being in Australia, Pedr Davis in his book Spotlight on Mini Minor Downunder states "Australian protypes were running by June 1960 and this writer, Pedr Davis was commissioned by BMC Australia to drive one and make a confidential report on its sales prospects" - Page 7 and "June 1960: Australian - assembled protypes were running in Australia" - Page 13. I know that many of the experts have discounted some of the information in this book but the fact that Pedr Davis was commissioned by BMC Australia to develop a report on its sales potential and drove an Australian assembled protoype in June 1960 speaks for itself (no mention of how many prototypes were produced unfortunately).

It seems that there were earlier cars in Australia and that some may have been pre-production protypes. It does seem that out cars are late 1960 and are most likely in the first production batch that started in January 1961.

So it is possible that there could be some very early cars out there somewhere, maybe even a rare 1959 car.


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 Post subject: Guards
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:12 am 
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david rosenthal wrote:
The differences in the mudguards can be seen in the pics I put on the previous page with some measurements. When you take measuments follow the contour and use a fiberglass dress-maker's tape. It is a lot more accurate.

My car has a convex on right hand side and concave on the left. You will find that the curve between the guard and windscreen panel is different between the two types. Also the curve of the windscreen panel where it curves down to the side seam is also different.The early car the curve is alot sharper.
It appears that there was a difference in panels but no;one is exactly sure when the change occured. They think about early 1961. I think that the C.D.K had the new type of panels. It would be interesting to find the earlyist C.D.K. and check for changes. If these cars were made from panels sent from England in oct/nov 1960 then they could be older style.
It is interesting to see that wild willies car has the same bits as mine.


Cee Kay Dee David :wink:

One thing I immediately thought of was the numerous "give way to the right" accidents that occurered before the priority road system came into vogue. If I were you, I would be looking for evidence that the right wing has been replaced as a result of a prang :idea:

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 Post subject: NZ 1959
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:30 am 
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This is believed to be the first Mini imported into NZ....ignore some of the changes, I think it had later doors fitted.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:44 am 
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I could be wrong Mick but it looks like it has the bigger rear and side windows of a mk3 ???? Still has mk1 doors though , could be just the photo .

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 Post subject: NP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:47 am 
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sports850 wrote:
I could be wrong Mick but it looks like it has the bigger rear and side windows of a mk3 ???? Still has mk1 doors though , could be just the photo .


Not the rear Mike...shes old school...as for the sides, who knows :?: a lot can happen in 40 years...

Would any kiwi member know where this car went after New Plymouth :?:

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:50 am 
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Mike ???

Jetlag still going is it Mick ?

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 Post subject: Splendour in the Grass
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:02 am 
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sports850 wrote:
Mike ???

Jetlag still going is it Mick ?


Hah..look Ian...you know what I mean...vowel-vo-lean!! :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:01 am 
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1098cc
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Quote:
In regards to completed cars being in Australia, Pedr Davis in his book Spotlight on Mini Minor Downunder states "Australian protypes were running by June 1960 and this writer, Pedr Davis was commissioned by BMC Australia to drive one and make a confidential report on its sales prospects" - Page 7 and "June 1960: Australian - assembled protypes were running in Australia" - Page 13.


I would be fairly confident in the car that Davis drove being one of the three (or six?) complete cars that came from England for pre-approval, testing and evaluation. One of these went to WA, where it was taken around to dealerships to gain feedback, etc, and was later sold to the BMC rep who drove it around for this purpose (sold in December 1960, before the cars were even available new). We had a full history of this car (now owned by a Qld collector) in Issue 1 of TME.

Of the other two cars, which apparently were used for the same purpose in NSW, Vic and Qld (what about SA and Tas?) one was sold to Peter Manton for racing - see Issue 8 - but no trace of the other has turned up - yet.

3 or 6? According to BMIHT when I contacted them (in the days when they were helpful without always wanting money for answering questions) the car we featured in Issue 1 was one of six cars built in February 1960 and sold to Nuffield Exports. It is known that at least three of these came to Australia - the numerous ex-factory people I have spoken to can only recall there being three cars - but it is not clear if the other three cam to Australia or, more likely, went to other RHD markets, such as South Africa and New Zealand, where they were to be assembled.

However, in Ryno Verster's very detailed book on South African Mini production, he says the first pre-production prototype Mini arrived in South Africa in August 1959. "This was a prototype to assist with tooling for the first Mini to be built later that year...This prototype was registered in the Cape Town municipality as CA71..."

So, it is not likely that one of the six cars from Nuffiled Exports in February 1960 went to South Africa. It is also not likely that the other three cars were just for normal export sales - why such a small batch. You would expect a much large consignment than 6 cars, but then, not being privy to the goings on of Nuffield Exports, we have to accept that anything is possible.

The best I have been able to make out is that these three cars that came to Australia were the only complete cars imported from the UK by BMC Australia prior to assembly commencing here from CKD packs. Local content in the cars increased for a number of reasons - partly because of tarrif reductions on components imported if assembled locally with locally-sourced components, partly to meet changes deemed necessary for the cars to be more suitable for Australian conditions, and partly due to cost.

The Australian Government introduced its Motor Vehicle Plan for local content (often referred to as Plan A) in 1963, and as a result of this the decision was taken to press panels for Mini locally. It was a choice between manufacturing the body shells completely or the engines locally, and, although the factory was already doing both functions for a variety of cars, it was found that the body panels required less captial investment than doing the engines.

Some Mini/Morris 1100 engines were later assembled here from imported and local parts, but that would not be for some years.

So, getting back to these early cars, and the Pedr Davis connection - I think you can discount the idea that the car he tested for BMC was an Australian-built prototype. If they had Australian-built cars, even at prototype level, then the decision would already have been made to make them here. If he was requested to do a feasabilitly study for manufacture, then that decision had not been made - so it stands to reason it was one of the imported UK cars.

Just because he was involved at that level does not mean he was privy to everything going on in the factory, and I think his statement that pre-production prototypes were running around in June 1960 refers to the three UK cars.

These UK cars were also clearly production models, not UK pre-production prototypes as is often wrongly suggested, being manufactured in February 1960.

Cheers,
Watto. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: NZ 1959
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:09 pm 
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9YaTaH wrote:
This is believed to be the first Mini imported into NZ....ignore some of the changes, I think it had later doors fitted.


I believe the first Mini imported into New Zealand was pre-production and was operated by "The Southland News Company". Performance of the car was monitored and results sent back to Britain. Percy Vickery was the Austin agent (and an importer) and his name was well know in upper BMC management. It is also possible it was Alf Walmsley of Watts and Grieve, the Morris agent. He was known to have imported a number of prototype BMC vehicles, including Austin Ant's. A friend of mine bought the car and it was later written off after he severely damaged it in a rollover.

Regards
Al


Last edited by 66S on Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:13 pm 
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Watto, do you have a date when production started in Aust., i.e. setting up assembly line . Dad is quite sure that he saw some new mini's that were partly dissasembled for componet manufacturing here. If Wild Willies and my car were made here then the parts would have been probably made in England around oct then sent out for assembly.
I wonder if there were 6 cars and some were these that dad saw in late 60. They may have been used by BMC then sold off later. Do you have any no's off these cars and dates when they arrived here.
The problem is that as we know what is in books on minis quite often turns out to be incorrect. The bloke from England who has been helping me has a july built morris car, and a dec built austin and on both cars there are bits that do not correspond to changes listed. He also said to look for original chassis no's stamped on the subframe member and even on the gusset plate. They seemed to put them all over the place. He knows of the mudguard change but both of his cars have concave type[ he is unsure if they are original] He has a few contacts in British heritage and he is going to ask about CDK CKD [each way bet] to see what info is around. I get the impression from Brit .hert. that if you do not have a no. on their list then they are not interested in looking further.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Quote:
I get the impression from Brit .hert. that if you do not have a no. on their list then they are not interested in looking further.


Not surprising, when you consider how many records they must have. They need some starting point, and the chassis number is the best, particularly as engines weren't fitted in any number sequence.

No idea about actual starting date for assembly in Australia at the moment, but I am closing in on it. Watch this space - or more correctly, watch the space between the covers of The Mini Experience in a couple of issues.

I am hoping to visit the former Chief Engieneer from Experimental at Zetland in September, and I'm hoping he may be able to fill in a few blanks.

Cheers,
Watto.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:34 pm 
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Back when Heritage certificates cost 5 bucks and came typed on plain paper and signed by Anders Clausager, you could give them a chasis number, car number or engine number and they would fish around to find your car. Then they could tell you the other numbers, the build date, colours, options fitted (if you accept that "not" having a heater was an option), the dealer who ordered it and maybe the original rego number.

By 63, if the engine was shipped with a completely knocked down kit, then that was about all they could tell you as chasis numbers hadn't yet been allocated.

As far as I can tell, UK cars did not have numbers stamped on the body. All the numbers I can find on my car are on small plates (including the two FE numbers) which are spot welded, screwed or riveted to the body (or engine).

I would suggest you get a heritage certificate (report?) as the best source of origin data.

Cheers, Ian


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:57 am 
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BMIHT will still search on an engine number of body number but they charge you more for the privelege.

Trying to track an 848cc car from the engine number would be like looking for the proverbial haystack in a huge pile of needles and the engine number prefix is not recorded in the production records.

Cowley did build both Morris and Austin saloons. With regard to chassis numbers, Austin chassis numbers raced ahead of Morris ones because all Mini variants used the Longbridge sequence whereas Cowley only supplied Morris saloon chassis numbers. This is why you get a big discrepancy between Morris Travellers and saloons.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:47 am 
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Hi Watto,
I am not sure whether to butt in or butt out of this discussion but since you have mentioned the possibility that an early car came to New Zealand, I maybe should pass on the only bits of information my memory can recall. Further to what I wrote above, the car reputed to be the first Mini into New Zealand was dark blue/gray in colour and I was told it was here in 1959 before production commenced. I cannot say this is a fact but, if it was here on trial, it suggests that it would have been pre production if it was to have an influence on the final production design. Could it have been here earlier than August?

Although the car was early, I recall it being pretty much as you would expect a '59/'60 car would be. By the time the car was disposed off, circa 1966, it had done a huge mileage delivering newspapers but it had survived pretty well. The engine and gearbox had been replaced twice I think but the body was sound.

Sorry if this is irrelevant!

Regards
Al


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 Post subject: Butt in mate...
PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:54 am 
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66S wrote:
Hi Watto,
I am not sure whether to butt in or butt out of this discussion but since you have mentioned the possibility that an early car came to New Zealand, I maybe should pass on the only bits of information my memory can recall. Further to what I wrote above, the car reputed to be the first Mini into New Zealand was dark blue/gray in colour and I was told it was here in 1959 before production commenced. I cannot say this is a fact but, if it was here on trial, it suggests that it would have been pre production if it was to have an influence on the final production design. Could it have been here earlier than August?

Although the car was early, I recall it being pretty much as you would expect a '59/'60 car would be. By the time the car was disposed off, circa 1966, it had done a huge mileage delivering newspapers but it had survived pretty well. The engine and gearbox had been replaced twice I think but the body was sound.

Sorry if this is irrelevant!

Regards
Al


Al....butt away, this is interesting stuff to a lot of people...the "1959" Austin Mini I posted a pic of may certainly be the first production Mini imported - thats why I asked if anyone knows where it is.

You should try and find out a little more about this pre-prod "proto". The local library or newspaper may have pictures and words about newspaper deliveries where ever in the Shakey Isles that might have been. Maybe your archives have pics from the local BMC dealer??

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