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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:23 pm 
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justminis wrote:
I too have small journal 1100S cranks stamped 12G1288 that are cross-drilled. I also have a small journal 1100S crank stamped 12G1392, it is also cross-drilled. The webs of this crank looked "grey" compared to the others, which I took to mean it had been tuftrided.

Kev, that non cross-drilled crank, is it stamped 12G1288?

Just checked and yes it is. Very poor stamping, the 1st digit is almost not there.
I don't know if it's tufftrided or not; the engine it came out of had obviously suffered oil starvation on corners, the mains were fine but all the crankpins were .007" oval! :shock:
It's OK now, I got those reground. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:51 pm 
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Thanks Kev. Interesting just how many variations there were of these things.

Do you or anyone else know if the grey colouring of the crank webs indicates tuftriding?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:00 pm 
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It's been a long time since I had much to do with tufftriding of steels but I think yes, it is.
In 1968 I bought a NEW Morris 1100S short motor from BMC.
The new crank in this one was grey, and just for fun I put a new file to one of the crank webs. It wouldn't even mark it. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:58 pm 
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well I just did the same to my crank with a file and it too won't mark, hard as hell. So does this mean it it tuftrided?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:59 pm 
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ronniemac wrote:
well I just did the same to my crank with a file and it too won't mark, hard as hell. So does this mean it it tuftrided?


Yes, I would say so.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Tuftriding is a surface hardening process, and it doesn't go real deep. So although the crank was hard all over, regrinds to the bearing journals since would probably have gone through it.
I've been told this particular process is now NLA in Oz, thanks to the EPA. :roll:

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R. :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:11 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
I've been told this particular process is now NLA in Oz, thanks to the EPA. :roll:


Not quiet so....

There are still places that do tufftriding here in Oz... infact its actually gaining popluarity in some industries.....

This is the only link I could find quickly, second add down http://www.metals.rala.com.au/supp_heattreat.htm

My mates who do press tooling still get quite a bit of stuff Nitrided too.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:28 pm 
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I was once involved with press tooling too.
Nitriding (the real one, gas nitriding) is a common hardening process but only works on steels with specific alloying ingredients, eg EN40B. EN16 isn't on the list.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:39 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
I was once involved with press tooling too.
Nitriding (the real one, gas nitriding) is a common hardening process but only works on steels with specific alloying ingredients, eg EN40B. EN16 isn't on the list.


There's a few different types of Nitriding, and Tufftriding actually falls under the loose banner of nitriding processes. It depends on the application, but none are any "realler" than another.

Yeah, I don't remember what it was these guys were nitriding, I know that a lot of their tooling is done in K100 and K110.... but these are usually heat treated. It could have been Arne, but from memory it more common to heat treat that too.

<edit> and I think where a production item like a crank shaft is concerned, the appeal of nitriding is that its quicker than heat treating... Even diamensionally stable tool steels need a lick after their heat treated, where as often with nitriding you can grind it, treat it and send it on its way... not rough it out, treat it, grind to size (after 40-90 hours of heat treatment) then send it on its way.... could be another reason too but as far as I can tell that would be it


Last edited by Phat Kat on Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:54 pm 
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If you are going to nitride an EN40B crank, it has to be hardened first. Otherwise, the core strength is too weak.
They also grow in size which causes production problems, one reason BMC did away with it in the late 60s.

From wiki-
"Materials for nitriding

Examples of easily nitridable steels include the SAE 4100, 4300, 5100, 6100, 8600, 8700, 9300 and 9800 series, UK aircraft quality steel grades BS 4S 106, BS 3S 132, 905M39 (EN41B), stainless steels, some tool steels (H13 and P20 for example) and certain cast irons. Ideally, steels for nitriding should be in the hardened and tempered condition, requiring nitriding take place at a lower temperature than the last tempering temperature. A fine-turned or ground surface finish is best. Minimal amounts of material should be removed post nitriding to preserve the surface hardness.

Nitriding alloys are alloy steels with nitride forming elements such as aluminum, chromium, molybdenum and titanium."

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:09 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
If you are going to nitride an EN40B crank, it has to be hardened first. Otherwise, the core strength is too weak.
They also grow in size which causes production problems, one reason BMC did away with it in the late 60s.

From wiki-
"Materials for nitriding

Examples of easily nitridable steels include the SAE 4100, 4300, 5100, 6100, 8600, 8700, 9300 and 9800 series, UK aircraft quality steel grades BS 4S 106, BS 3S 132, 905M39 (EN41B), stainless steels, some tool steels (H13 and P20 for example) and certain cast irons. Ideally, steels for nitriding should be in the hardened and tempered condition, requiring nitriding take place at a lower temperature than the last tempering temperature. A fine-turned or ground surface finish is best. Minimal amounts of material should be removed post nitriding to preserve the surface hardness.

Nitriding alloys are alloy steels with nitride forming elements such as aluminum, chromium, molybdenum and titanium."



Oh ok... I didn't know that you had to harden EN40B first (I assume through harden if we're worried about core strength).... if it was going to grow at any stage of production that would be it, not as a result of the nitriding process.... are you sure they were through hardened? I thought it a tough core would have been desireable to a hard one..... given the application.... (would explain the way they crack though! :lol: )

I remember learning about Nitrocarburizing (the broader banner that covers nitriding and tufftriding), and one of the big pluses with it was that it doesn't impact size or finish.... but obviously (as you've said) thats subject to any processes that the material used needs to undergo prior to treatment.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:26 pm 
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They were hardened, then tempered (so not brittle), then they were gas nitrided. This forms a hard iron nitride coating on the surface. BMC managed to get it much deeper than the books say. It' is only supposed to go .005" or so deep.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:45 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
They were hardened, then tempered (so not brittle), then they were gas nitrided. This forms a hard iron nitride coating on the surface. BMC managed to get it much deeper than the books say. It' is only supposed to go .005" or so deep.



:lol: Probably because Rolls Royce did the cranks for them and they actually understand steels

I didn't know how deep it was though. So about 0.005" + ..... sounds alright for a plain bearing. I've never had anything Nitrided, so I don't really know what a typical penetration is. Cooool beans


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:13 pm 
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Shame I never did heat treating or metallurgy. I cant understand a word you guys are saying! :wink: :D

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:17 pm 
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micowen wrote:
Shame I never did heat treating or metallurgy. I cant understand a word you guys are saying! :wink: :D



You cheeky bastard... you're worse than me! :lol:


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