There is an interesting article in this month's Unique Cars magazine around this issue and a Victorian Court decision around the identity and authenticity of a GT Falcon....a bit of a test case.

I have read the article, but have not had time to have a look at the decision yet!

I think it's black and white, if you change the numbers and get caught your in trouble.
Really what's the reason behind doing it? To make an "original" car? or to make a car more valuable?
IMO for example if you build a cooper S with a deluxe shell it will still have the same chariacter as the S but it will be devalued as it's not %100 original so market value will be less.
On the other hand if you have the S shell and you swap the numbers to the deluxe shell then all the little body features will give it away and make people sceptical and if you get caught out you will get raked over the coals. If you go to the extra effort and swap all the little body features over and do a factory spec build you will probably get away with it.
Really what's the benefit? if it is to make the car worth more your cheating the buyer.

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Respect mine and I'll respect yours.

Here we go again

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1964 998cc Cooper
1971 Mini K x 2
1972 Clubman GT

This has been debated a million times on thousands of forums. It gets back to enterpretation of the rules. Here's some examples:

1. You cut the number off one car and put it on another. That's classed as illegal, yes?

2. you cut the front off through 'A' pillar and join it to another rear. That's OK, yes?

3. you buy rusted out car and replace all the rusty bits with new ones, say 75%, bit crazy but asume it's a very rare vehicle. That too is classed as OK, yes?

4. You buy a brand new replacement shell of exactly correct model, you do rebody, That's OK, yes?

5. You buy car with properly repaired section where VIN was, but they didn't stamp number and lost old part. You take it to police and get sorrogate number for VIN. This number means nothing to anyone except police, doesn't say what make model or the like. If it was this senario with your genuine Cooper S, how do you prove to a potential buyer it's genuine? It's still legal.

I know there is small differences between bodys of say a 1968 mini deluxe and a 1968 mini cooper S. (don't pick me on that, it's just an example) and assuming the repairs are done to a highly profesional standard.
Concider this, your Cooper S is totally knackered with rust so you cut the "different" pieces out of the S and put them in the Deluxe shell, including the whole section with the body number on it (not just number), it ends up 90% mini deluxe and 10% Cooper S. Is it still a Cooper S?

I used to be employed restoring cars and have seen just that. Cars rebuilt from just a chassis and a pile of bits from other cars. In fact I have an Austin 7 in my shed that is is about 30% Austin 7, it's still classed as an Austin 7 but.

Ok lets simplify this whole discussion, and then maybe agree not to have it again for at least a year

When conducting repairs etc, the number has to stay with the car it was stamped on. Repair as much as you like, it is the original car. As long as you are repairing (bashing or cutting) around it, it is still a repair.

Move the number to another shell, it is wrong, deceptive, illegal, immoral. Just plain wrong. Whether it is cutting the number and moving it, or stamping the numbers on the new shell and destroying the old one.

At some point if a shell is damaged beyond repair, the owner has to cut their losses and let it go. Trying to rebirth it to save their investment, or scam some money after buying someone elses number, is wrong, deceptive, illegal, immoral. Just plain wrong.

My two cents.

Ok a year from now is 30/9/2012. Anyone up to the challenge of not debating again till then? Good, because my statement above about rebirthing cars is "winning" and anyone who disagrees with me is a troll. (Just kidding, I watched Charlie sheens video last night - bizarre)

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Cheers
Alec
1275LS - July 78 - XNFAD18Y/102918

OK and I agree with 1275LS above.

But-
This is a true case.. not mine- no names, no packdrill.
A Mk2 Cooper S has a shunt, and it damages the rad shroud and the LH guard beyond repair.
OK to fold up a new rad shroud correct to the last detail, and stamp correct numbers- yes or no?
BTW, the numbers still in the gutter are original/correct...

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Consider these 2 scenarios : An engine block thats had the engine number machined off accidently when the block has been decked . Is it then illegal to restamp the original number ?? Or in the case of an engine block with a piston through the side ,is it then illegal to restamp the replacement block with the original number ??
I suspect that both have been done in the past

I have read the Unique Cars article and it underlines the fact that if you are selling the car, if you represent it as being an XY GT and it is really rebodied XY Falcon then you are going to wear it. You can't say it will never happen as I will never sell it, leaving it to the kids, etc etc.
There are alot of cars which are represented as being original, XY's are flavour of the month.
The Mini which has been repaired as the Doc says is ok. It has been repaired. The rebodied Deluxe into an S is not.
I remember going to see a guy at Yennora who worked from his backyard in the late 70's. He was joining Mini Clubmans that had been damaged, doing cut and shuts straight down the middle. It was the scariest thing I ever saw.
Then to cause further trouble, why don't we get into the arguement what is "Original." Is anything original once it has been repaired?
For those of us that get precious about it, our cars were not Rolls Royces and were driven by all. They were left out in the rain and worse and they were not very well built. That is part of their charm. As they say on other forums part of owning is fixing them and finding out what the PO (previous owner) did.
But instead of getting mad or upset about the lack of originality we should really sometimes smile and say good on you under our breath before we start swearing again. They fixed a problem, not as we would like it but they fixed it all the same. Perhaps they had neither the parts nor the money to do what we can do now (paint jobs anyone). But they did it all the same. Besides, the old car is still here and not scrapped - and we have the chance to repair it and try and put it close to right.

Restamping original numbers back onto original engines/ bodies isn't illegal as you're not trying to desieve or misrepresent anything. As for changing a Deluxe into a Cooper S, then that's illegal but only if you put the Cooper S numbers on the Deluxe body.
There is the argument as to whether it is then a Cooper S? The answer would have to be YES, as a Cooper S in a variant of the mini range, and a mini with ALL the Cooper S parts fitted would have to be one.

BUT, IT ISN"T AN ORIGINAL COOPER S.
I'll back up what I'm saying by using another example. If you welded the front of a HQ holden sedan onto the rear of a HQ ute, then it has to then be a HQ ute, even though the ID plates say's it's a sedan.

he he he! I love this sort of stuff, could discuss it till the cows come home. Sure beats taliking politics or religion!

I know of a forum member who bought a "genuine" s only to find that it was not , illegal yes any action taken by the authorities , NONE and the original owner got away with it .

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That's why it's good to be.............ME

I did hear that BMC/Leyland sold five times as many Cooper S badges as they sold cars! Must be something in that?

Just out of curiosity, how may people on this site have 'non Cooper' Coopers? I'm willing to put my hand up, not that I'm trying to deceive anyone, if they ask it's, "nah, it's just a pommy Mayfair".

Ah no. Not sure what the cops would say but id be fine with that.



Yes

And if it wasn't orignially prepared by the factory as a cooper S, it is a replica.

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Cheers
Alec
1275LS - July 78 - XNFAD18Y/102918

I do not classify my genuine Cooper S as an orignal Cooper S.

its a matching number car, but, I have restored it, new paint, new interior, rebuilt motor, new mechanicals ......

unlike my Leyland mini.... which has orignal paint, orignal interior etc...

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