yep, "Genuine" car,,, but not "Original"

2 different kettles of fish

in England the body is regarded as a "Part",,, just one "Part" of many that make up the car as a whole

so, in essence it`s still a genuine "S" with a "Genuine" "S" body shell

if it was re-bodied with an 850 shell,,,then---> no... not genuine & not original

so,,, the words --> "genuine",,, & --> "Original" ,,, both have their places

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

I agree it has been rebodied, but with a kosher (new) Cooper S body. it has not been rebodied with a s/h Deluxe (for example) shell. In my opinion, it is still the real deal, a Cooper S.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Here's a senario for you.
If someone bought a cooper s brand new and years later it gets stolen. The theives are smart, they grind the engine number off and after removing the ID plates they cut the body number out, thinking they've got away with it, they get busted by the cops. The cops return the car to the owner they said they stole it from, intact minus ID items. The owner decides to sell it, can he sell it as a genuine cooper S?

I've noticed must of what has been written in this thread mentions putting cooper S stuff into Deluxe's etc. What happens if you put Deluxe stuff , engine, brakes etc into a Cooper S body, can you still call it a Cooper S.

I know there's the differeces between genuine, authentic and original. So if you want to be technical, there's NO original CooperS's left, all would had something replaced on them at some time.

Neither genuine or original . Its still a replacement bodyshell ,no matter how you look at it . Thats exactly the same as a backyard repairer using a genuine bare 'S' bodyshell that he bought on ebay and changes over all the parts from his genuine wrecked Cooper 'S' . Its still not as it came from the factory ,no matter who owns it or who repairs it, it is still non genuine and non original ,and its still worth considerably less than a genuine unmolested Cooper 'S' when he trys to sell it .
Under todays laws Watto's example above would now be considered re-birthing and illegal,as would the backyard repairer's example.

"I'm not going to agree or disagree with anyone regarding this topic, but thought I'd throw another interesting sample into the mix.
........... It is a genuine factory-built YDO6 body with all the correct brackets, etc for Cooper S.
The car is re-bodied with this replacement shell,......
However, the new body has a number that starts with PA - being for Parts & Accessories division of BMC - and does not match the number on the ID plate. ......

Registration authorities continue to register it as a Cooper S.

Many years later, owner tries to sell his car as a genuine Cooper S.

Is it?

Just food for thought. "

This is pretty much the kind of argument that used involve lots of port and consideration of how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.... In other words, completely inconsequential.

The real arguments are "who cares", "how much money is involved" and "who has been defrauded - of how much".

It is illegal to represent something as other than it is to obtain (generally financial) advantage.

Many years ago an ACTMCC member (A) built a "Cooper S" as practice for a future restoration (he had lots of spare S bits). He then sold it to (B) as a "cooperised" Deluxe - which it was. B then sold it to C as a "Cooper S" - at a substantial premium. Unfortunately C had problems with it was referred to an expert - A....ooops

Cue, police, courts etc and a substantial funds transfer to C from B - who was lucky not to do time... (and not in the garage . The car was badged as an S - with pretty much all the recognition points - NOT an S chassis number. However, the court found that C was entitled to depend on B's representation of the goods. It may well have found that B was uncaring in going ahead with the sale when physical evidence to the contrary existed. But it didn't.

The case of duplicate cars consequent to the repair of a previously discarded body (or chassis) has been heard by courts a number of times in the UK and US. When competing claims have been made the courts have generally (but not always) sided with the vehicle with "continuous" history. In most cases the issues are a dollar (or pound) sign followed by LOTS of numbers.

In the UK you can rebody a car and retain the original identity as long as you use a new ie unused body supplied by the original manufacturer AND a specified quantity of original components (points are awarded to engines, brakes, gearboxes etc and you have to score enough points). Otherwise the old car is gone and you get a new identity.

The bottom line is "it depends". You're completely entitled to your opinion - until someone else accepts your protestations - and it costs them $$. Then you better be sure you have the better lawyer...

Cheers, Ian

PS the real answer to Watto's question is how much (if at all) the value of the S is reduced by a replacement body (non matching numbers).

Neither genuine or original . Its still a replacement bodyshell ,no matter how you look at it . Thats exactly the same as a backyard repairer using a genuine bare 'S' bodyshell that he bought on ebay and changes over all the parts from his genuine wrecked Cooper 'S' . Its still not as it came from the factory ,no matter who owns it or who repairs it, it is still non genuine and non original ,and its still worth considerably less than a genuine unmolested Cooper 'S' when he trys to sell it .
Under todays laws Watto's example above would now be considered re-birthing and illegal,as would the backyard repairer's example.[/quote]

I'd disagree, on 2 points. The car WOULD be genuine as it was repaired using GENUINE parts, but not original. Also a car repaired using a genuine factory spare part body shell isn't regarded as rebirthing or illegal. I've worked at numerous panel shops and done, from memory, at least 7 rebodies. All using genuine parts and all totally legal. I did one a fair while ago now, a white camira, it came off the production line, complete with VINs stamped, ID plates but no complience plate.

Rebirthing relates to 'stolen' cars put back in service using 'false' ID, either from another car or made up, and is most definately illegal.
Puting parts out of one car (not stolen) into another car (not stolen) isn't illegal unless you swap the identifiers, then you're guilty of fraud and/or deception.

I had a chat with our local Dept of Transport about this not that long ago. I have a 77 Clubman S which is rusted out and twisted and badly damaged from an accident, but registered. I wanted to reshell this car with another 77 Clubman S that I had that was basically just a roller with a good shell. I talked to the DoT about doing this and they simply told me that no, it was illegal. Apparently in WA, because the mini has no chassis, the body number takes place of the chassis number. This means that you cannot swap bodies between cars. Apparently you can reshell a vehicle that has a chassis with a seperate chassis number, but not a mini. Likewise, you cannot replace the chassis of chassised vehicle.

So apparently, in WA, if the shell is unrepairable, the whole identity of the vehicle is stuffed.

Cheers,
Keels.

_________________
-Wasabi
1972 Clubman - Daily Driver
1962 850 - EW1 Powered

So in this case why not just rebuild the good shell with its own identity #s, and stick all your parts in it?

_________________
DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Pretty much what I'm doing. But I was thinking if it had a lot of history for one reason or another, be it an ex race car or a car your grandad bought brand new and still has the same registration, I just thought it a shame you can't continue it's history by reshelling. I know it's a bit like grandads axe, had two new handles and 3 new heads, but it's still grandads axe

Cheers,
Keels.

_________________
-Wasabi
1972 Clubman - Daily Driver
1962 850 - EW1 Powered

how`s about this scenario-->

someone has what looks to be a genuine "S"

he/she doesn`t know much about it, maybe bought it a few years back from some fella out west, but has lost all the details/history

however he/she now wants to sell it so puts it up on car-sales or similar

heaps of (mini-savy) people look at it & all agree that it has all the right stuff, the numbers match, but no history of the car is readilly avaliable, but to all intent & purpose it certainly looks to be the real deal

so,,, is it genuine/original "S" ?

or has the car been fudged?



sooooo,,,, it`s anyones guess , isn`t it??? the fact is that it would take a very well trained eye (& years or knowlege & experience) to pick it

unless some decent "Real" history is brought forward... """OR""" the car is ripped apart in an attempt to find some forms of previous life,,, then who`s to know for sure???

& how many people do you know who own an "S" are going to let you start ripping their pride & joy apart before you buy it from them????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

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it really doesn`t matter how many different scenarios people put forward,,, if it`s got all the right stuff, all in the right places & the numbers all seem to be "S" in some fashion,,, then it`s an "S"

"""""""""the degree of originality & the degree of it`s genuine-ness"""""""""" is then the only variable part of the equation that would need to be valued/appraised,,,

IE: Imaculate, pristine, matching numbers cars would top the list

then a shabby old decrepit, miss-matching numbered car with more than half the bits missing & rusty & dented & all yuk,,, would be the bottom of the list, or maybe just a body shell that "looks" like a "S" shell

Sooooo,,, anything inbetween--> are they still classified as "S"`s ???

lets put it this way--> if you found an "S" body & some "S" bits,,, would you chuck it away?????????? or build it back up to be a "real" "S" ??????????????

there really is no definitive answer i reckon

just don`t forget--> ,,, if it looks & smells like dog sh!t,,, then it probably is dog sh!t

_________________
No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.