Gday mini people!

(Attention TheMiniMan Matt and others, continuation from previous discussions)

Yes I know this has been spoken about many times before, yes I have done the searches and I have read all the topics already that came up, but I have new, finer detail questions, particularly for those who run AO32R's on the track.

I currently have adjustable Castor bars and non-adjustable -1.5 lower arms. I am in the process of changing this over to fully adjustable lower arms and so will need to visit Jim Hunters Suspension Blacktown (free plug!). The reason for the change is as follows:

Currently on the car are the following settings when I was running A008's

Front:
1/16 Toe Out
Camber -1.5 Neg
Caster 3.0

Rear:
Camber -1 neg
Toe 1/8 toe in

At this setting I loved it. I thought it was really great handling on the A008's (maybe I don't know better!) but I thought it was nice and sharp. Tyre wear was fine, straight line was fine, everything good on these settings for 5 or so years now.

But then I put on all new AO32R's (lovely by the way) and she immediately feels abit slushy. Turn in isn't as sharp, a little oversteery in nature, like the back end is turning faster than the front. Overall it's not too bad but I would like to get it back to razor sharp, predictable response again. Just looking for a balanced and sharper cornering characteristics.

GR has suggested I want to dial in more camber to -2 or -2.5 degrees as the AO32R's like more camber? And hence why I am changing over to fully adjustable arms. It's predominantly a road car but I do plan to do some Wakefield later on this year... I don't do many miles so a setup for windy road handling would be nice.

Here's what I plan to run:

Front:
1/16 Toe Out
Camber -2.5 Neg
Caster 4.0

Rear:
Camber -1 neg
Toe 1/8 toe in

Questions:

- Will the additional camber sort out the slushiness? or is it more to do with the caster?
- Is 4 enough caster? should it be more 4.5? Would ruung more caster make it more prone to bumps and uneven roads etc? or is that the other way around?
- Is the slushiness related to rear end too? My back end is not adjustable so can only do toe settings. I just don't like the sound of those flimsy rear brackets...
- Should I change the back to 1/16 toe in?
- I am running 32/30psi, should I change this and run higher (or lower) PSI? Out of interest what do guys run when you are on the track? Should I pump it to this before taking it to get wheel alignment to ensure the measurements and adjustments are correct? (can't remember if measurements are made unsprung or not so maybe tyre pressure doesn't matter?)

Many thanks, still learning...

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

If it is for the track increase your tyre pressure to around 40 front 38 rear. Not enough castor or camber on the front.
Increase castor to around 4deg neg and camber to around 2deg as well (as a guide).

It all varies depending on your cars weight, suspension type, car type, shocks etc etc so nothing is going to be the perfect answer for you. Buy yourself a laser pyrometer and get tyre temps to help you with the setup from there. If you dont understand what I mean pm me

PS: dont trust your local tyre jockey to do a wheel alignment, take it to a suspension specialist place or better still, buy you own kit and do it yourself.

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car

Thanks for reply. Yeah I take it to Jim Hunter's Suspension, they know what they're doing.

I thought about buying my own kit... will look into that. EDIT: do you mean a digital gauge or some other thing?

What does tyre temps have to do with it?? Please do tell, eager to learn

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

What dampers are you running? If your getting turn in oversteer and the car is pitching in too much put some bump back into the front. "Slushy" is not a describing word. Do you feel there is too much roll in the chassis? Not enough? Play with bump and rebound, Is the tyre rolling past it's optimal point? If so as above put some tyre pressure into it. Is the car transferring its weight correctly? Play with ride heights.

I find it odd that bad front end grip is causing over steer.. That isn't a symptom I've ever come across in a front wheel drive car.

I'd say now that you have a slightly grippier tyre, the rear end can't keep up. Hence your oversteer

Edit- tyre temps, on track, are critical if your over heating the inside of the surface of the tyre your killing its grip and eventually it will blister,

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Potato

Yes sorry need to be more descriptive.

Firstly I have Hydro, competition bump stops at the rear, front shock absorber mod at the front with standard shocks from a clubman. (thought about changing this too to something harder).

I am more referring to initial turn in, the initial moment you turn the wheel left and right, the car just feels less responsive, more tail happy, like a delayed response to steering wheel movement. Not referring to high speed cornering as such.

This was the only noticeable immediate change when swapping tyres. I even put the same wheels back on the same corner of the car. Maybe it's nothing! Maybe toe or something has changed with the new tyres, because they are an entirely different dimensions to the A008's...

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

Hi Chong,

I'm interested as I need a full wheel alignment also.

I think it needs more caster at the front.

I don't like too much rear camber as it made mine feel oversteery, I run 0camber and a tad toe in on rear.

When you plan to go over to Jim's let me know and I will bring mine too.

Grant

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100% Pure A Series Turbo
Morris - The Original RedBull Racing

Hey Grant!

Yeah would be great to see your beast again too!

Not sure when I'll get around to it buddy, I am hoping one Saturday morning or something? I want to do it soon though, I'll let you know.

Interesting about rear end being 0 and small (1/16?) ... I felt the complete opposite? I don't mind the way it's handling now with -1 and 1/8 toe in. I remember when it was 0 and it felt like it was abit floaty on the freeway. (When it was just 1/16 Toe Out when I original bought the car and it was downright scary on the freeway!!)

When I had it dialed down up to -1 and 1/8 and got both sides even, it felt much tighter and more responsive.

Great now I'm even more confused! I think I'll go one step at a time and not change anything in the rear and just do the front first.

So what do you think the caster at the front should be? 4.5? 5?

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

Sorry for added confusion.

Happy to meet up whenever suits.

It was zero camber rear and std toe what ever that is.

Agree do one end at a time.

Front caster to be around 4.5 I think

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100% Pure A Series Turbo
Morris - The Original RedBull Racing

haha no worries, happy to discuss and deliberate! Want to learn more

OK. Thinking about buying one of these now and making myself a turn plate....

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Longacre-782 ... 1047516246

I am lucky in that my garage is pancake flat and level which will make it easy to do these measurements. Free wheel alignments anyone??

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

ok,,, this can be a bit of a tricky one for a number of reasons, especially with the hydro, but i`ll do what i can to help

first up Yes-> you will notice the difference between the 008s & 32s because the 2 tyres are totally different in nearly all depts

tyre construction... type of rubber,,, tyre shape,,,, & tyre age,,, all play their part in the changes you have felt

your settings are not far off from what i`d suggest so it really is a matter of playing around a bit more to neaten the thing up,,, but yes maybe add some more camber for sure,,, just as GR said, & i agree, the 32s do like a bit more neg

& depending on your camber settings & car stiffness you may add some more caster up front too because that also helps "induce" camber upon cornering ( yes it`s pretty Tricky i know)

tyre pressures are something i`d be just bumping down a bit actually, (Sorry Coatsy i`m not agreeing with you on your pumping them up) i know it may sound silly me saying this as one of the complaints is the "slushyness" feeling,,, but the new taller gooy-er ao032 rubber will tend to shift around a bit more than an older harder more solid side-wall 008 ,,, a little more slip angle inherent from the a032 is part of the problem here

But in saying that, you really do need to be carefull with low "Initial" pressures until the tyre warms up to running temp i don`t want you peeling a tyre off a rim on your first lap out but that`s where your tyres need to be to start--> do it this way because then you will find that the more laps that youdo then the more the pressures & temps will come up to where you want them after a few laps,,, now depending on how many laps you do is criticle for your starting point yeah??? getting it??? if you on ly do 3 lap sprints then your compromise needs to be a little harder on pressures cause you want to be able to go straight out there & be fairly fast right off the bat yeah???

But if you`re out there for a full 25 lap race then you can afford to make the tyre a little lower in initial pressures & be calm in your first few laps till the tyres come up to pressure/temp & then you can drive harder for longer (warning--> don`t over heat the tyres,,, you will feel it if you do it ,,, or rather you should feel them go off if you over-drive),,,

so, my suggestion is to maybe play with about 24 or 25psi first (to start with),,, feel the wobbly-ness & gooy-ness of pressures being a little low for a few laps & then you`ll feel the benefit after they have all come up to temp & you can drive harder then,,,

i used to run my hoosiers at 15-18psi (initial) depending on what type of racing i`m doing,,, & they`d come up to 26 to 28 , maybe 30 depending on the type of racing once i`m hard at it,,, so,,, once you work out where your starting point is then you can get to feel out the grip level with them as they get hotter,,, got it?

so,,, during testing of all this, you can run some laps & then pull back into the pits & then you can quickly run around the car with both your pyrometer (Lazer-light temp gauge) & your tyre pressure gauge ,,, this way you can nail-down your own personal driving technique to suit your own personal car & tyre settings... feeling out a blend that suits you & your car.

Now this pyrometer thing is a beauty (yes i`ve had one your a million years & it really is a damn good little tool) you can run around the car pointing & shooting the tyres across the tread,,, one zap on the outside & write down the temp,,, zap it again in the middle of the tyre & write down that temp,,, zap it again on the inside of the tyre & write that temp down,,, do this quickly on all four tyres & the results will give you a far better idea of what your settings need to be than any wheel alignment guru can

add this data to the pressures you measured & add all that to the feel of the car as you change stuff ,,, & you can play with your driving technique to help the situation... you may even find a new method & realise that you`ve been driving it all wrong in the past

& yes i`d stick some Koni-red shocks on the front to be honest (or something similar) I`d also look at running some restrictors in your hydro lines to help stop the pitching & diving

sorry i don`t know if you`ve played with sway-bars but sometimes it`s worth it depending on the car & driving technique

i wish i could throw your car around the track testing it for you

edit--> Oh & PS: get someone to take some pics or video of your car during cornering too,, this will help with both your car attitude/angle/lean/body roll & your driving style/lines/technique... you can then see what`s happening a bit more clearly & un-biased if you get my "drift",,, pardon the pun

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

Haha was eagerly awaiting your post!

OK I get it now with tyre temps, sorry totally noob at this. I see what you mean and can understand everything you just described so thank you. Need more thought into it than just setting it to high and be done with it!

So from the feedback I'll go with:

Front:
1/16 Toe Out
Camber -2.5 Neg
Caster 4.5

Rear:
Camber -1 neg
Toe 1/8 toe in

And see how I go. Seems pretty simple I suppose, set it to that and work out if it's right or wrong for me.

I will definitely look into new shocks now that you've mentioned it. I have been meaning to for a long time and now feels like the right time to sort it out once and for all.

I will look into the restrictors too, pondered that many years ago and never got beyond interesting.

Not thought about rear sway bar (assuming you mean rear!). I think I'll go one step at a time for now though, but this seems easier than the restrictors mod

Thanks Matt!!! When's your birthday bash?? I might have to drive her up and then you can drive it around! lol

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Lillee - 1969 Morris Mini K

You`re welcome mate
& party 9th of march

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No offence intended here but--> anyone writing a book about minis 30 years ago may not have experienced such worn or stuffed-with components as we are finding these days.

You should put your heart & soul into everything you do.

That is the same type of gauge that I have been using for the past 15 years. Though that particular one is designed for wide five speedway wheels, check the size of the centre before buying.
You can do a lot with them, sometimes you will need to make an adaptor to suit different wheels that you can't get the magnet onto.
Remember that if you stick a turntable under the front you will also need to lift the rear the same height.

Only make one change at a time, you don't want to confuse yourself changing too many things at once. Keep a book of changes.
Sometimes a big change will tell you more than a small change. (but within reason) You could make three small changes before you realise you are going the wrong direction! One big change might tell you if you are headed the right way even if you go too far!

I set toe-in/out with a sting line, a tape measure and a steel ruler, it takes a bit of setting up but it is very accurate if done properly.

I'm flying up Chong, I'm not masochistic enough to sit behind a 45 Dellorto for 650+ miles.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Hi Chong
For what your doing the settings your going for will be fine EXCEPT FOR THE CASTER no more than 3 deg if you have a look at centre of your tyre in relation to the king pin inclination on the road you'll find that its way in side the centre of your tyre so the more caster you put on the more it loads the in side of the tyre on lock in turn this will over heat inside of your tyre and destroy it none of our race cars use any more than 3deg caster if you have a look at some of the sports sedans (minis) some of them are running 6and 8 degs caster and with wide slicks on on lock you'll see the out side of the tyre can be 1ins to 1.5ins off the ground and all that does is cook the inside of the tyre and lose grip.
The reason your car feels wobbley is the fact that the 32s are very soft in the side walls and have a lot of grip, when you turn into a corner just let the car take it's set and all will be fine but you have to be smooth and not aggressive with the wheel or you will take the edge off the tyre and there goes your grip when your tyres are hot your pressures should be around 31 any higher and you will lose grip with them.
Graham Russell

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"It's better to be not informed than ill-informed"